Are the names of these months realistic?How to express a time exactly on the hour?When did acronyms first appear?How do you write dates in Latin?What is the optative?Did the Romans have a Valentine's day?How would you say, “How long have you been a X?”Usage of “Have to” before The Middle AgesDid the Romans have an expression for a national day?When did elision fall out of use?How did the Romans say what year it was?

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Are the names of these months realistic?


How to express a time exactly on the hour?When did acronyms first appear?How do you write dates in Latin?What is the optative?Did the Romans have a Valentine's day?How would you say, “How long have you been a X?”Usage of “Have to” before The Middle AgesDid the Romans have an expression for a national day?When did elision fall out of use?How did the Romans say what year it was?













8















I'm working on a calendar. To choose the name of the months I focused on Latin and in particular on a systematisation of the names finishing with 'ber'. I was wondering if my choices were correct and realistic.
For example, the name of the twelfth month is too long so if you think you know how it would have evolved in English, I'm interested.



  1. Premember

  2. Secember

  3. Tertiember

  4. Quatember

  5. Quintember

  6. Sextember

  7. September

  8. October

  9. November

  10. December

  11. Undecember

  12. Duodecember









share|improve this question




























    8















    I'm working on a calendar. To choose the name of the months I focused on Latin and in particular on a systematisation of the names finishing with 'ber'. I was wondering if my choices were correct and realistic.
    For example, the name of the twelfth month is too long so if you think you know how it would have evolved in English, I'm interested.



    1. Premember

    2. Secember

    3. Tertiember

    4. Quatember

    5. Quintember

    6. Sextember

    7. September

    8. October

    9. November

    10. December

    11. Undecember

    12. Duodecember









    share|improve this question


























      8












      8








      8








      I'm working on a calendar. To choose the name of the months I focused on Latin and in particular on a systematisation of the names finishing with 'ber'. I was wondering if my choices were correct and realistic.
      For example, the name of the twelfth month is too long so if you think you know how it would have evolved in English, I'm interested.



      1. Premember

      2. Secember

      3. Tertiember

      4. Quatember

      5. Quintember

      6. Sextember

      7. September

      8. October

      9. November

      10. December

      11. Undecember

      12. Duodecember









      share|improve this question
















      I'm working on a calendar. To choose the name of the months I focused on Latin and in particular on a systematisation of the names finishing with 'ber'. I was wondering if my choices were correct and realistic.
      For example, the name of the twelfth month is too long so if you think you know how it would have evolved in English, I'm interested.



      1. Premember

      2. Secember

      3. Tertiember

      4. Quatember

      5. Quintember

      6. Sextember

      7. September

      8. October

      9. November

      10. December

      11. Undecember

      12. Duodecember






      language-evolution time calendarium






      share|improve this question















      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited yesterday







      Blincer

















      asked 2 days ago









      BlincerBlincer

      1805




      1805




















          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          12














          In addition to the familiar September–December, there were two more numerically named months before they were renamed in early imperial era: Quintilis and Sextilis.
          These should definitely go to your slots 5 and 6.
          In English you could call these Quintile and Sextile.



          You seem to have slightly misanalyzed the ending.
          What you add to the end of a number is not -ember but -ber.
          This is an easy mistake to make, as three of the four usual month numbers (septem, octo, novem, decem) end in -em.
          The key observation is that we have October, not Octember.



          It appears that the numbers 7–10 get the ending -ber to the cardinal number, whereas 5–6 get the ending -ilis to the (stem of the) ordinal number.
          That is, Quin(c)tilis and Sextilis seem to be based on quintus and sextus, not quinque and sex.
          So, there are two attested ways to produce month names from numbers.



          To me it sounds more natural to use the ordinal one for the first months:



          1. primus > Primilis

          2. secundus/alter > Secundilis/Altrilis


          3. tertius > Tertilis (somehow Tertiilis sounds unnatural)

          4. quartus > Quartilis

          Tertilis and Quartilis (or Tertile and Quartile in English) sound quite natural to me, but the first two less so.
          However, they feel more understandable and Latin to me than the ones you proposed.
          With this pattern the first half of the year has -ilis, the second half has -ber.



          I find no way around the somewhat clumsy Undecember and Duodecember.
          As Draconis points out in another answer, the Latin numbers 11 and 12 are undecim and duodecim, so maybe you could change the month names to Undecimber and Duodecimber.
          However, it would not be unreasonable to keep the -e- by analogy in the English versions.
          I don't know whether adding -ber in Latin would change the vowel or whether later developments in English would naturally lead to a vowel change, but this is just a minor detail.
          One practical benefit of the -i- is that it sets the eleventh and twelfth month apart from December.



          An option worth serious consideration is having the year start in March instead of January.
          This is what the Roman calendar did, and this is why the names are off by two.
          This would have the benefit of the months names aligning with the ones already in use.



          Here is the suggested list in English resulting from the considerations above:



          1. Primile

          2. Altrile or Secundile

          3. Tertile

          4. Quartile

          5. Quintile

          6. Sextile

          7. September

          8. October

          9. November

          10. December

          11. Undecember or Undecimber

          12. Duodecember or Duodecimber





          share|improve this answer
































            7














            To supplement Joonas's wonderful answer, the words for "eleven" and "twelve" in Latin are undecim and duodecim, with an i. So I would suggest those months be changed to Undecimber and Duodecimber.






            share|improve this answer























            • Good point! I upgraded my answer a bit. I would find it reasonable to keep the e in the English versions by analogy. I don't really know whether the -ber would have an effect on the vowel in Latin.

              – Joonas Ilmavirta
              2 days ago






            • 1





              I would strongly prefer "Undecember" and "Duodecember" rather than using forms ending in "-decimber", both because of the analogy of "September", &al., and the fact the reduction of the "e" to "i" in undecim would not naturally occur in a heavy syllable, as in Undec(e/i)mber.

              – varro
              2 days ago











            • @varro Does vowel reduction not happen in heavy syllables? I thought it happened to short vowels no matter what came after them.

              – Draconis
              yesterday






            • 1





              I probably should have been more precise in my comment. Compare accipere with acceptus - the second vowel in each exhibits a type of vowel reduction, but the closed syllable in acceptus prevents the last stage in the full progression of /a/ -> /e/ -> /i/, which is at issue here. That said, the various numbers ending in -decim seem to be somewhat irregular in that we should expect to see forms such as *undicem, &c. rather than undecim.

              – varro
              yesterday











            Your Answer








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            2 Answers
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            2 Answers
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            active

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            active

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            12














            In addition to the familiar September–December, there were two more numerically named months before they were renamed in early imperial era: Quintilis and Sextilis.
            These should definitely go to your slots 5 and 6.
            In English you could call these Quintile and Sextile.



            You seem to have slightly misanalyzed the ending.
            What you add to the end of a number is not -ember but -ber.
            This is an easy mistake to make, as three of the four usual month numbers (septem, octo, novem, decem) end in -em.
            The key observation is that we have October, not Octember.



            It appears that the numbers 7–10 get the ending -ber to the cardinal number, whereas 5–6 get the ending -ilis to the (stem of the) ordinal number.
            That is, Quin(c)tilis and Sextilis seem to be based on quintus and sextus, not quinque and sex.
            So, there are two attested ways to produce month names from numbers.



            To me it sounds more natural to use the ordinal one for the first months:



            1. primus > Primilis

            2. secundus/alter > Secundilis/Altrilis


            3. tertius > Tertilis (somehow Tertiilis sounds unnatural)

            4. quartus > Quartilis

            Tertilis and Quartilis (or Tertile and Quartile in English) sound quite natural to me, but the first two less so.
            However, they feel more understandable and Latin to me than the ones you proposed.
            With this pattern the first half of the year has -ilis, the second half has -ber.



            I find no way around the somewhat clumsy Undecember and Duodecember.
            As Draconis points out in another answer, the Latin numbers 11 and 12 are undecim and duodecim, so maybe you could change the month names to Undecimber and Duodecimber.
            However, it would not be unreasonable to keep the -e- by analogy in the English versions.
            I don't know whether adding -ber in Latin would change the vowel or whether later developments in English would naturally lead to a vowel change, but this is just a minor detail.
            One practical benefit of the -i- is that it sets the eleventh and twelfth month apart from December.



            An option worth serious consideration is having the year start in March instead of January.
            This is what the Roman calendar did, and this is why the names are off by two.
            This would have the benefit of the months names aligning with the ones already in use.



            Here is the suggested list in English resulting from the considerations above:



            1. Primile

            2. Altrile or Secundile

            3. Tertile

            4. Quartile

            5. Quintile

            6. Sextile

            7. September

            8. October

            9. November

            10. December

            11. Undecember or Undecimber

            12. Duodecember or Duodecimber





            share|improve this answer





























              12














              In addition to the familiar September–December, there were two more numerically named months before they were renamed in early imperial era: Quintilis and Sextilis.
              These should definitely go to your slots 5 and 6.
              In English you could call these Quintile and Sextile.



              You seem to have slightly misanalyzed the ending.
              What you add to the end of a number is not -ember but -ber.
              This is an easy mistake to make, as three of the four usual month numbers (septem, octo, novem, decem) end in -em.
              The key observation is that we have October, not Octember.



              It appears that the numbers 7–10 get the ending -ber to the cardinal number, whereas 5–6 get the ending -ilis to the (stem of the) ordinal number.
              That is, Quin(c)tilis and Sextilis seem to be based on quintus and sextus, not quinque and sex.
              So, there are two attested ways to produce month names from numbers.



              To me it sounds more natural to use the ordinal one for the first months:



              1. primus > Primilis

              2. secundus/alter > Secundilis/Altrilis


              3. tertius > Tertilis (somehow Tertiilis sounds unnatural)

              4. quartus > Quartilis

              Tertilis and Quartilis (or Tertile and Quartile in English) sound quite natural to me, but the first two less so.
              However, they feel more understandable and Latin to me than the ones you proposed.
              With this pattern the first half of the year has -ilis, the second half has -ber.



              I find no way around the somewhat clumsy Undecember and Duodecember.
              As Draconis points out in another answer, the Latin numbers 11 and 12 are undecim and duodecim, so maybe you could change the month names to Undecimber and Duodecimber.
              However, it would not be unreasonable to keep the -e- by analogy in the English versions.
              I don't know whether adding -ber in Latin would change the vowel or whether later developments in English would naturally lead to a vowel change, but this is just a minor detail.
              One practical benefit of the -i- is that it sets the eleventh and twelfth month apart from December.



              An option worth serious consideration is having the year start in March instead of January.
              This is what the Roman calendar did, and this is why the names are off by two.
              This would have the benefit of the months names aligning with the ones already in use.



              Here is the suggested list in English resulting from the considerations above:



              1. Primile

              2. Altrile or Secundile

              3. Tertile

              4. Quartile

              5. Quintile

              6. Sextile

              7. September

              8. October

              9. November

              10. December

              11. Undecember or Undecimber

              12. Duodecember or Duodecimber





              share|improve this answer



























                12












                12








                12







                In addition to the familiar September–December, there were two more numerically named months before they were renamed in early imperial era: Quintilis and Sextilis.
                These should definitely go to your slots 5 and 6.
                In English you could call these Quintile and Sextile.



                You seem to have slightly misanalyzed the ending.
                What you add to the end of a number is not -ember but -ber.
                This is an easy mistake to make, as three of the four usual month numbers (septem, octo, novem, decem) end in -em.
                The key observation is that we have October, not Octember.



                It appears that the numbers 7–10 get the ending -ber to the cardinal number, whereas 5–6 get the ending -ilis to the (stem of the) ordinal number.
                That is, Quin(c)tilis and Sextilis seem to be based on quintus and sextus, not quinque and sex.
                So, there are two attested ways to produce month names from numbers.



                To me it sounds more natural to use the ordinal one for the first months:



                1. primus > Primilis

                2. secundus/alter > Secundilis/Altrilis


                3. tertius > Tertilis (somehow Tertiilis sounds unnatural)

                4. quartus > Quartilis

                Tertilis and Quartilis (or Tertile and Quartile in English) sound quite natural to me, but the first two less so.
                However, they feel more understandable and Latin to me than the ones you proposed.
                With this pattern the first half of the year has -ilis, the second half has -ber.



                I find no way around the somewhat clumsy Undecember and Duodecember.
                As Draconis points out in another answer, the Latin numbers 11 and 12 are undecim and duodecim, so maybe you could change the month names to Undecimber and Duodecimber.
                However, it would not be unreasonable to keep the -e- by analogy in the English versions.
                I don't know whether adding -ber in Latin would change the vowel or whether later developments in English would naturally lead to a vowel change, but this is just a minor detail.
                One practical benefit of the -i- is that it sets the eleventh and twelfth month apart from December.



                An option worth serious consideration is having the year start in March instead of January.
                This is what the Roman calendar did, and this is why the names are off by two.
                This would have the benefit of the months names aligning with the ones already in use.



                Here is the suggested list in English resulting from the considerations above:



                1. Primile

                2. Altrile or Secundile

                3. Tertile

                4. Quartile

                5. Quintile

                6. Sextile

                7. September

                8. October

                9. November

                10. December

                11. Undecember or Undecimber

                12. Duodecember or Duodecimber





                share|improve this answer















                In addition to the familiar September–December, there were two more numerically named months before they were renamed in early imperial era: Quintilis and Sextilis.
                These should definitely go to your slots 5 and 6.
                In English you could call these Quintile and Sextile.



                You seem to have slightly misanalyzed the ending.
                What you add to the end of a number is not -ember but -ber.
                This is an easy mistake to make, as three of the four usual month numbers (septem, octo, novem, decem) end in -em.
                The key observation is that we have October, not Octember.



                It appears that the numbers 7–10 get the ending -ber to the cardinal number, whereas 5–6 get the ending -ilis to the (stem of the) ordinal number.
                That is, Quin(c)tilis and Sextilis seem to be based on quintus and sextus, not quinque and sex.
                So, there are two attested ways to produce month names from numbers.



                To me it sounds more natural to use the ordinal one for the first months:



                1. primus > Primilis

                2. secundus/alter > Secundilis/Altrilis


                3. tertius > Tertilis (somehow Tertiilis sounds unnatural)

                4. quartus > Quartilis

                Tertilis and Quartilis (or Tertile and Quartile in English) sound quite natural to me, but the first two less so.
                However, they feel more understandable and Latin to me than the ones you proposed.
                With this pattern the first half of the year has -ilis, the second half has -ber.



                I find no way around the somewhat clumsy Undecember and Duodecember.
                As Draconis points out in another answer, the Latin numbers 11 and 12 are undecim and duodecim, so maybe you could change the month names to Undecimber and Duodecimber.
                However, it would not be unreasonable to keep the -e- by analogy in the English versions.
                I don't know whether adding -ber in Latin would change the vowel or whether later developments in English would naturally lead to a vowel change, but this is just a minor detail.
                One practical benefit of the -i- is that it sets the eleventh and twelfth month apart from December.



                An option worth serious consideration is having the year start in March instead of January.
                This is what the Roman calendar did, and this is why the names are off by two.
                This would have the benefit of the months names aligning with the ones already in use.



                Here is the suggested list in English resulting from the considerations above:



                1. Primile

                2. Altrile or Secundile

                3. Tertile

                4. Quartile

                5. Quintile

                6. Sextile

                7. September

                8. October

                9. November

                10. December

                11. Undecember or Undecimber

                12. Duodecember or Duodecimber






                share|improve this answer














                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer








                edited 2 days ago

























                answered 2 days ago









                Joonas IlmavirtaJoonas Ilmavirta

                48.8k1271286




                48.8k1271286





















                    7














                    To supplement Joonas's wonderful answer, the words for "eleven" and "twelve" in Latin are undecim and duodecim, with an i. So I would suggest those months be changed to Undecimber and Duodecimber.






                    share|improve this answer























                    • Good point! I upgraded my answer a bit. I would find it reasonable to keep the e in the English versions by analogy. I don't really know whether the -ber would have an effect on the vowel in Latin.

                      – Joonas Ilmavirta
                      2 days ago






                    • 1





                      I would strongly prefer "Undecember" and "Duodecember" rather than using forms ending in "-decimber", both because of the analogy of "September", &al., and the fact the reduction of the "e" to "i" in undecim would not naturally occur in a heavy syllable, as in Undec(e/i)mber.

                      – varro
                      2 days ago











                    • @varro Does vowel reduction not happen in heavy syllables? I thought it happened to short vowels no matter what came after them.

                      – Draconis
                      yesterday






                    • 1





                      I probably should have been more precise in my comment. Compare accipere with acceptus - the second vowel in each exhibits a type of vowel reduction, but the closed syllable in acceptus prevents the last stage in the full progression of /a/ -> /e/ -> /i/, which is at issue here. That said, the various numbers ending in -decim seem to be somewhat irregular in that we should expect to see forms such as *undicem, &c. rather than undecim.

                      – varro
                      yesterday















                    7














                    To supplement Joonas's wonderful answer, the words for "eleven" and "twelve" in Latin are undecim and duodecim, with an i. So I would suggest those months be changed to Undecimber and Duodecimber.






                    share|improve this answer























                    • Good point! I upgraded my answer a bit. I would find it reasonable to keep the e in the English versions by analogy. I don't really know whether the -ber would have an effect on the vowel in Latin.

                      – Joonas Ilmavirta
                      2 days ago






                    • 1





                      I would strongly prefer "Undecember" and "Duodecember" rather than using forms ending in "-decimber", both because of the analogy of "September", &al., and the fact the reduction of the "e" to "i" in undecim would not naturally occur in a heavy syllable, as in Undec(e/i)mber.

                      – varro
                      2 days ago











                    • @varro Does vowel reduction not happen in heavy syllables? I thought it happened to short vowels no matter what came after them.

                      – Draconis
                      yesterday






                    • 1





                      I probably should have been more precise in my comment. Compare accipere with acceptus - the second vowel in each exhibits a type of vowel reduction, but the closed syllable in acceptus prevents the last stage in the full progression of /a/ -> /e/ -> /i/, which is at issue here. That said, the various numbers ending in -decim seem to be somewhat irregular in that we should expect to see forms such as *undicem, &c. rather than undecim.

                      – varro
                      yesterday













                    7












                    7








                    7







                    To supplement Joonas's wonderful answer, the words for "eleven" and "twelve" in Latin are undecim and duodecim, with an i. So I would suggest those months be changed to Undecimber and Duodecimber.






                    share|improve this answer













                    To supplement Joonas's wonderful answer, the words for "eleven" and "twelve" in Latin are undecim and duodecim, with an i. So I would suggest those months be changed to Undecimber and Duodecimber.







                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered 2 days ago









                    DraconisDraconis

                    18.1k22474




                    18.1k22474












                    • Good point! I upgraded my answer a bit. I would find it reasonable to keep the e in the English versions by analogy. I don't really know whether the -ber would have an effect on the vowel in Latin.

                      – Joonas Ilmavirta
                      2 days ago






                    • 1





                      I would strongly prefer "Undecember" and "Duodecember" rather than using forms ending in "-decimber", both because of the analogy of "September", &al., and the fact the reduction of the "e" to "i" in undecim would not naturally occur in a heavy syllable, as in Undec(e/i)mber.

                      – varro
                      2 days ago











                    • @varro Does vowel reduction not happen in heavy syllables? I thought it happened to short vowels no matter what came after them.

                      – Draconis
                      yesterday






                    • 1





                      I probably should have been more precise in my comment. Compare accipere with acceptus - the second vowel in each exhibits a type of vowel reduction, but the closed syllable in acceptus prevents the last stage in the full progression of /a/ -> /e/ -> /i/, which is at issue here. That said, the various numbers ending in -decim seem to be somewhat irregular in that we should expect to see forms such as *undicem, &c. rather than undecim.

                      – varro
                      yesterday

















                    • Good point! I upgraded my answer a bit. I would find it reasonable to keep the e in the English versions by analogy. I don't really know whether the -ber would have an effect on the vowel in Latin.

                      – Joonas Ilmavirta
                      2 days ago






                    • 1





                      I would strongly prefer "Undecember" and "Duodecember" rather than using forms ending in "-decimber", both because of the analogy of "September", &al., and the fact the reduction of the "e" to "i" in undecim would not naturally occur in a heavy syllable, as in Undec(e/i)mber.

                      – varro
                      2 days ago











                    • @varro Does vowel reduction not happen in heavy syllables? I thought it happened to short vowels no matter what came after them.

                      – Draconis
                      yesterday






                    • 1





                      I probably should have been more precise in my comment. Compare accipere with acceptus - the second vowel in each exhibits a type of vowel reduction, but the closed syllable in acceptus prevents the last stage in the full progression of /a/ -> /e/ -> /i/, which is at issue here. That said, the various numbers ending in -decim seem to be somewhat irregular in that we should expect to see forms such as *undicem, &c. rather than undecim.

                      – varro
                      yesterday
















                    Good point! I upgraded my answer a bit. I would find it reasonable to keep the e in the English versions by analogy. I don't really know whether the -ber would have an effect on the vowel in Latin.

                    – Joonas Ilmavirta
                    2 days ago





                    Good point! I upgraded my answer a bit. I would find it reasonable to keep the e in the English versions by analogy. I don't really know whether the -ber would have an effect on the vowel in Latin.

                    – Joonas Ilmavirta
                    2 days ago




                    1




                    1





                    I would strongly prefer "Undecember" and "Duodecember" rather than using forms ending in "-decimber", both because of the analogy of "September", &al., and the fact the reduction of the "e" to "i" in undecim would not naturally occur in a heavy syllable, as in Undec(e/i)mber.

                    – varro
                    2 days ago





                    I would strongly prefer "Undecember" and "Duodecember" rather than using forms ending in "-decimber", both because of the analogy of "September", &al., and the fact the reduction of the "e" to "i" in undecim would not naturally occur in a heavy syllable, as in Undec(e/i)mber.

                    – varro
                    2 days ago













                    @varro Does vowel reduction not happen in heavy syllables? I thought it happened to short vowels no matter what came after them.

                    – Draconis
                    yesterday





                    @varro Does vowel reduction not happen in heavy syllables? I thought it happened to short vowels no matter what came after them.

                    – Draconis
                    yesterday




                    1




                    1





                    I probably should have been more precise in my comment. Compare accipere with acceptus - the second vowel in each exhibits a type of vowel reduction, but the closed syllable in acceptus prevents the last stage in the full progression of /a/ -> /e/ -> /i/, which is at issue here. That said, the various numbers ending in -decim seem to be somewhat irregular in that we should expect to see forms such as *undicem, &c. rather than undecim.

                    – varro
                    yesterday





                    I probably should have been more precise in my comment. Compare accipere with acceptus - the second vowel in each exhibits a type of vowel reduction, but the closed syllable in acceptus prevents the last stage in the full progression of /a/ -> /e/ -> /i/, which is at issue here. That said, the various numbers ending in -decim seem to be somewhat irregular in that we should expect to see forms such as *undicem, &c. rather than undecim.

                    – varro
                    yesterday

















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