Why don’t women say שלא עשני גויה and שפחה, according to Ashkenazim?Parashat Shemini + ParaThe Split Between Sefardim and AshkenazimWhy do the Ashkenazim say Selichos for a minimum of 4 days before Rosh HaShana?Women and Mayim AcharonimWhy do men say Shelo Asani Isha, and women say Sheasani Kirtzono?Should Ashkenazim say 'מוריד הטל' in Israel?Why do we say the 13 Middos so often?What is the intention when we recite the blessing “who didn't make me…”?Morning blessing before Shema - why “Borei et Hakol” and not “Borei Ra”?Why do Ashkenazim in Israel tend to use Nusach Sefard?Why do we say מודה אני and not אני מודה?
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Why don’t women say שלא עשני גויה and שפחה, according to Ashkenazim?
Parashat Shemini + ParaThe Split Between Sefardim and AshkenazimWhy do the Ashkenazim say Selichos for a minimum of 4 days before Rosh HaShana?Women and Mayim AcharonimWhy do men say Shelo Asani Isha, and women say Sheasani Kirtzono?Should Ashkenazim say 'מוריד הטל' in Israel?Why do we say the 13 Middos so often?What is the intention when we recite the blessing “who didn't make me…”?Morning blessing before Shema - why “Borei et Hakol” and not “Borei Ra”?Why do Ashkenazim in Israel tend to use Nusach Sefard?Why do we say מודה אני and not אני מודה?
I see in Nusach Edos HaMizrach, women say שלא עשני גויה and שלא עשני שפחה, “Who did not make me a non-Jewess” and “Who did not make me a maidservant,” paralleling the men’s שלא עשני גוי and שלא עשני עבד, “Who did not make me a non-Jew” and “Who did not make me a slave.”
Why don’t Ashkenazi women say these forms of the Berachos? Doesn’t it make more sense for women to refer to female non-Jews and slaves, rather than use the masculine form?
tefilla minhag
asked yesterday
DonielFDonielF
16.2k12584
add a comment |
I see in Nusach Edos HaMizrach, women say שלא עשני גויה and שלא עשני שפחה, “Who did not make me a non-Jewess” and “Who did not make me a maidservant,” paralleling the men’s שלא עשני גוי and שלא עשני עבד, “Who did not make me a non-Jew” and “Who did not make me a slave.”
Why don’t Ashkenazi women say these forms of the Berachos? Doesn’t it make more sense for women to refer to female non-Jews and slaves, rather than use the masculine form?
tefilla minhag
asked yesterday
DonielFDonielF
16.2k12584
1
Some Ashkenaz do and some Sefardim don't. Don't extrapolate from some Siddur you saw when there are lots of different Siddurim out there.
– Double AA♦
yesterday
@DoubleAA Granted it was just one Edus HaMizrach Siddur, but I’ve never seen an Ashkenazi Siddur with this Nusach.
– DonielF
yesterday
3
Is there a reason to think that if a Jewish woman hadn't been a Jewish woman it would be more likely for her to have been a non-Jewish woman than to be a non-Jewish man?
– Alex
yesterday
Like everything else, it's not so black and white. Some Ashkenazim will change the text of the Siddur to make it more grammatically correct for women's usage (e.g. "Modah Ani" vs. "Modeh Ani") and some Sefardim will not change the text of the Siddur. In fact, in some Sefardi communities (and I'd actually venture to say this is the norm), women do not pray from the Siddur at all, so there is no need to change the text of the berachot.
– ezra
yesterday
By the way, just because a Siddur does not indicate a variant Nusach does not mean that Nusach does not exist. Plenty of Sefardi Siddurim do not print the women's variations of the berachot. Some of these changes are implied and are changed by the user, depending on their community's Minhag.
– ezra
yesterday
add a comment |
I see in Nusach Edos HaMizrach, women say שלא עשני גויה and שלא עשני שפחה, “Who did not make me a non-Jewess” and “Who did not make me a maidservant,” paralleling the men’s שלא עשני גוי and שלא עשני עבד, “Who did not make me a non-Jew” and “Who did not make me a slave.”
Why don’t Ashkenazi women say these forms of the Berachos? Doesn’t it make more sense for women to refer to female non-Jews and slaves, rather than use the masculine form?
tefilla minhag
asked yesterday
DonielFDonielF
16.2k12584
I see in Nusach Edos HaMizrach, women say שלא עשני גויה and שלא עשני שפחה, “Who did not make me a non-Jewess” and “Who did not make me a maidservant,” paralleling the men’s שלא עשני גוי and שלא עשני עבד, “Who did not make me a non-Jew” and “Who did not make me a slave.”
Why don’t Ashkenazi women say these forms of the Berachos? Doesn’t it make more sense for women to refer to female non-Jews and slaves, rather than use the masculine form?
tefilla minhag
tefilla minhag
asked yesterday
DonielFDonielF
16.2k12584
asked yesterday
DonielFDonielF
16.2k12584
edited yesterday
DonielF
asked yesterday
DonielFDonielF
16.2k12584
asked yesterday
DonielFDonielF
16.2k12584
asked yesterday
DonielFDonielF
16.2k12584
16.2k12584
1
Some Ashkenaz do and some Sefardim don't. Don't extrapolate from some Siddur you saw when there are lots of different Siddurim out there.
– Double AA♦
yesterday
@DoubleAA Granted it was just one Edus HaMizrach Siddur, but I’ve never seen an Ashkenazi Siddur with this Nusach.
– DonielF
yesterday
3
Is there a reason to think that if a Jewish woman hadn't been a Jewish woman it would be more likely for her to have been a non-Jewish woman than to be a non-Jewish man?
– Alex
yesterday
Like everything else, it's not so black and white. Some Ashkenazim will change the text of the Siddur to make it more grammatically correct for women's usage (e.g. "Modah Ani" vs. "Modeh Ani") and some Sefardim will not change the text of the Siddur. In fact, in some Sefardi communities (and I'd actually venture to say this is the norm), women do not pray from the Siddur at all, so there is no need to change the text of the berachot.
– ezra
yesterday
By the way, just because a Siddur does not indicate a variant Nusach does not mean that Nusach does not exist. Plenty of Sefardi Siddurim do not print the women's variations of the berachot. Some of these changes are implied and are changed by the user, depending on their community's Minhag.
– ezra
yesterday
add a comment |
1
Some Ashkenaz do and some Sefardim don't. Don't extrapolate from some Siddur you saw when there are lots of different Siddurim out there.
– Double AA♦
yesterday
@DoubleAA Granted it was just one Edus HaMizrach Siddur, but I’ve never seen an Ashkenazi Siddur with this Nusach.
– DonielF
yesterday
3
Is there a reason to think that if a Jewish woman hadn't been a Jewish woman it would be more likely for her to have been a non-Jewish woman than to be a non-Jewish man?
– Alex
yesterday
Like everything else, it's not so black and white. Some Ashkenazim will change the text of the Siddur to make it more grammatically correct for women's usage (e.g. "Modah Ani" vs. "Modeh Ani") and some Sefardim will not change the text of the Siddur. In fact, in some Sefardi communities (and I'd actually venture to say this is the norm), women do not pray from the Siddur at all, so there is no need to change the text of the berachot.
– ezra
yesterday
By the way, just because a Siddur does not indicate a variant Nusach does not mean that Nusach does not exist. Plenty of Sefardi Siddurim do not print the women's variations of the berachot. Some of these changes are implied and are changed by the user, depending on their community's Minhag.
– ezra
yesterday
1
1
Some Ashkenaz do and some Sefardim don't. Don't extrapolate from some Siddur you saw when there are lots of different Siddurim out there.
– Double AA♦
yesterday
Some Ashkenaz do and some Sefardim don't. Don't extrapolate from some Siddur you saw when there are lots of different Siddurim out there.
– Double AA♦
yesterday
@DoubleAA Granted it was just one Edus HaMizrach Siddur, but I’ve never seen an Ashkenazi Siddur with this Nusach.
– DonielF
yesterday
@DoubleAA Granted it was just one Edus HaMizrach Siddur, but I’ve never seen an Ashkenazi Siddur with this Nusach.
– DonielF
yesterday
3
3
Is there a reason to think that if a Jewish woman hadn't been a Jewish woman it would be more likely for her to have been a non-Jewish woman than to be a non-Jewish man?
– Alex
yesterday
Is there a reason to think that if a Jewish woman hadn't been a Jewish woman it would be more likely for her to have been a non-Jewish woman than to be a non-Jewish man?
– Alex
yesterday
Like everything else, it's not so black and white. Some Ashkenazim will change the text of the Siddur to make it more grammatically correct for women's usage (e.g. "Modah Ani" vs. "Modeh Ani") and some Sefardim will not change the text of the Siddur. In fact, in some Sefardi communities (and I'd actually venture to say this is the norm), women do not pray from the Siddur at all, so there is no need to change the text of the berachot.
– ezra
yesterday
Like everything else, it's not so black and white. Some Ashkenazim will change the text of the Siddur to make it more grammatically correct for women's usage (e.g. "Modah Ani" vs. "Modeh Ani") and some Sefardim will not change the text of the Siddur. In fact, in some Sefardi communities (and I'd actually venture to say this is the norm), women do not pray from the Siddur at all, so there is no need to change the text of the berachot.
– ezra
yesterday
By the way, just because a Siddur does not indicate a variant Nusach does not mean that Nusach does not exist. Plenty of Sefardi Siddurim do not print the women's variations of the berachot. Some of these changes are implied and are changed by the user, depending on their community's Minhag.
– ezra
yesterday
By the way, just because a Siddur does not indicate a variant Nusach does not mean that Nusach does not exist. Plenty of Sefardi Siddurim do not print the women's variations of the berachot. Some of these changes are implied and are changed by the user, depending on their community's Minhag.
– ezra
yesterday
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
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There are a number of Ashkenazi Siddurim which include these forms of the blessings for women:
Siddur Derech Si'ach Sadeh, printed in Berlin in 1713, has both שלא עשני גויה and שלא עשני שפחה for women (in addition to שעשני כרצונו).
Siddur Avodas Yisrael, printed in Rödelheim in 1901, has שלא עשני נכריה and שלא עשני שפחה (in addition to שעשני כרצונו).
R. Yaakov Emeden in his Siddur Beis Yaakov writes that women should say שלא עשני גויה and שלא עשני שפחה (as well as שעשני כרצונו), however, since these versions of the blessings are not found in the Talmud, they should be said without Shem u'Malchus (Hashem’s names and the words melech ha’olam).
So the difference is not between Ashkenaz and Edos HaMizrach, it is merely a difference of opinion between various poskim from all communites whether it is preferable to use the original version, or change it to an explicitly feminine form.
(Based on information I found here)
answered yesterday
PloniPloni
4,6881460
1
This just pushes the question. Why do some change and some not? Particularly since it seems universally agreed to include שעשני כרצונו, which wasn’t in the Gemara, though many say that without שם ומלכות.
– DonielF
yesterday
@DonielF 1. Your original question was about Ashkenaz, so I answered that. But as far as why some do and some not I addressed in the last paragraph - it's like any other machlokes haPoskim. 2. Regarding שעשני כרצונו, it's not universal, as further evidenced by the fact that there's a machlokes whether or not to say it with Shem u'Malchus.
– Ploni
yesterday
@DonielF the Arukh hashulchan says he thinks the minhag near him is not to say שעשני כרצונו
– Double AA♦
yesterday
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
There are a number of Ashkenazi Siddurim which include these forms of the blessings for women:
Siddur Derech Si'ach Sadeh, printed in Berlin in 1713, has both שלא עשני גויה and שלא עשני שפחה for women (in addition to שעשני כרצונו).
Siddur Avodas Yisrael, printed in Rödelheim in 1901, has שלא עשני נכריה and שלא עשני שפחה (in addition to שעשני כרצונו).
R. Yaakov Emeden in his Siddur Beis Yaakov writes that women should say שלא עשני גויה and שלא עשני שפחה (as well as שעשני כרצונו), however, since these versions of the blessings are not found in the Talmud, they should be said without Shem u'Malchus (Hashem’s names and the words melech ha’olam).
So the difference is not between Ashkenaz and Edos HaMizrach, it is merely a difference of opinion between various poskim from all communites whether it is preferable to use the original version, or change it to an explicitly feminine form.
(Based on information I found here)
answered yesterday
PloniPloni
4,6881460
1
This just pushes the question. Why do some change and some not? Particularly since it seems universally agreed to include שעשני כרצונו, which wasn’t in the Gemara, though many say that without שם ומלכות.
– DonielF
yesterday
@DonielF 1. Your original question was about Ashkenaz, so I answered that. But as far as why some do and some not I addressed in the last paragraph - it's like any other machlokes haPoskim. 2. Regarding שעשני כרצונו, it's not universal, as further evidenced by the fact that there's a machlokes whether or not to say it with Shem u'Malchus.
– Ploni
yesterday
@DonielF the Arukh hashulchan says he thinks the minhag near him is not to say שעשני כרצונו
– Double AA♦
yesterday
add a comment |
There are a number of Ashkenazi Siddurim which include these forms of the blessings for women:
Siddur Derech Si'ach Sadeh, printed in Berlin in 1713, has both שלא עשני גויה and שלא עשני שפחה for women (in addition to שעשני כרצונו).
Siddur Avodas Yisrael, printed in Rödelheim in 1901, has שלא עשני נכריה and שלא עשני שפחה (in addition to שעשני כרצונו).
R. Yaakov Emeden in his Siddur Beis Yaakov writes that women should say שלא עשני גויה and שלא עשני שפחה (as well as שעשני כרצונו), however, since these versions of the blessings are not found in the Talmud, they should be said without Shem u'Malchus (Hashem’s names and the words melech ha’olam).
So the difference is not between Ashkenaz and Edos HaMizrach, it is merely a difference of opinion between various poskim from all communites whether it is preferable to use the original version, or change it to an explicitly feminine form.
(Based on information I found here)
answered yesterday
PloniPloni
4,6881460
1
This just pushes the question. Why do some change and some not? Particularly since it seems universally agreed to include שעשני כרצונו, which wasn’t in the Gemara, though many say that without שם ומלכות.
– DonielF
yesterday
@DonielF 1. Your original question was about Ashkenaz, so I answered that. But as far as why some do and some not I addressed in the last paragraph - it's like any other machlokes haPoskim. 2. Regarding שעשני כרצונו, it's not universal, as further evidenced by the fact that there's a machlokes whether or not to say it with Shem u'Malchus.
– Ploni
yesterday
@DonielF the Arukh hashulchan says he thinks the minhag near him is not to say שעשני כרצונו
– Double AA♦
yesterday
add a comment |
There are a number of Ashkenazi Siddurim which include these forms of the blessings for women:
Siddur Derech Si'ach Sadeh, printed in Berlin in 1713, has both שלא עשני גויה and שלא עשני שפחה for women (in addition to שעשני כרצונו).
Siddur Avodas Yisrael, printed in Rödelheim in 1901, has שלא עשני נכריה and שלא עשני שפחה (in addition to שעשני כרצונו).
R. Yaakov Emeden in his Siddur Beis Yaakov writes that women should say שלא עשני גויה and שלא עשני שפחה (as well as שעשני כרצונו), however, since these versions of the blessings are not found in the Talmud, they should be said without Shem u'Malchus (Hashem’s names and the words melech ha’olam).
So the difference is not between Ashkenaz and Edos HaMizrach, it is merely a difference of opinion between various poskim from all communites whether it is preferable to use the original version, or change it to an explicitly feminine form.
(Based on information I found here)
answered yesterday
PloniPloni
4,6881460
There are a number of Ashkenazi Siddurim which include these forms of the blessings for women:
Siddur Derech Si'ach Sadeh, printed in Berlin in 1713, has both שלא עשני גויה and שלא עשני שפחה for women (in addition to שעשני כרצונו).
Siddur Avodas Yisrael, printed in Rödelheim in 1901, has שלא עשני נכריה and שלא עשני שפחה (in addition to שעשני כרצונו).
R. Yaakov Emeden in his Siddur Beis Yaakov writes that women should say שלא עשני גויה and שלא עשני שפחה (as well as שעשני כרצונו), however, since these versions of the blessings are not found in the Talmud, they should be said without Shem u'Malchus (Hashem’s names and the words melech ha’olam).
So the difference is not between Ashkenaz and Edos HaMizrach, it is merely a difference of opinion between various poskim from all communites whether it is preferable to use the original version, or change it to an explicitly feminine form.
(Based on information I found here)
answered yesterday
PloniPloni
4,6881460
answered yesterday
PloniPloni
4,6881460
answered yesterday
PloniPloni
4,6881460
answered yesterday
PloniPloni
4,6881460
4,6881460
1
This just pushes the question. Why do some change and some not? Particularly since it seems universally agreed to include שעשני כרצונו, which wasn’t in the Gemara, though many say that without שם ומלכות.
– DonielF
yesterday
@DonielF 1. Your original question was about Ashkenaz, so I answered that. But as far as why some do and some not I addressed in the last paragraph - it's like any other machlokes haPoskim. 2. Regarding שעשני כרצונו, it's not universal, as further evidenced by the fact that there's a machlokes whether or not to say it with Shem u'Malchus.
– Ploni
yesterday
@DonielF the Arukh hashulchan says he thinks the minhag near him is not to say שעשני כרצונו
– Double AA♦
yesterday
add a comment |
1
This just pushes the question. Why do some change and some not? Particularly since it seems universally agreed to include שעשני כרצונו, which wasn’t in the Gemara, though many say that without שם ומלכות.
– DonielF
yesterday
@DonielF 1. Your original question was about Ashkenaz, so I answered that. But as far as why some do and some not I addressed in the last paragraph - it's like any other machlokes haPoskim. 2. Regarding שעשני כרצונו, it's not universal, as further evidenced by the fact that there's a machlokes whether or not to say it with Shem u'Malchus.
– Ploni
yesterday
@DonielF the Arukh hashulchan says he thinks the minhag near him is not to say שעשני כרצונו
– Double AA♦
yesterday
1
1
This just pushes the question. Why do some change and some not? Particularly since it seems universally agreed to include שעשני כרצונו, which wasn’t in the Gemara, though many say that without שם ומלכות.
– DonielF
yesterday
This just pushes the question. Why do some change and some not? Particularly since it seems universally agreed to include שעשני כרצונו, which wasn’t in the Gemara, though many say that without שם ומלכות.
– DonielF
yesterday
@DonielF 1. Your original question was about Ashkenaz, so I answered that. But as far as why some do and some not I addressed in the last paragraph - it's like any other machlokes haPoskim. 2. Regarding שעשני כרצונו, it's not universal, as further evidenced by the fact that there's a machlokes whether or not to say it with Shem u'Malchus.
– Ploni
yesterday
@DonielF 1. Your original question was about Ashkenaz, so I answered that. But as far as why some do and some not I addressed in the last paragraph - it's like any other machlokes haPoskim. 2. Regarding שעשני כרצונו, it's not universal, as further evidenced by the fact that there's a machlokes whether or not to say it with Shem u'Malchus.
– Ploni
yesterday
@DonielF the Arukh hashulchan says he thinks the minhag near him is not to say שעשני כרצונו
– Double AA♦
yesterday
@DonielF the Arukh hashulchan says he thinks the minhag near him is not to say שעשני כרצונו
– Double AA♦
yesterday
add a comment |
1
Some Ashkenaz do and some Sefardim don't. Don't extrapolate from some Siddur you saw when there are lots of different Siddurim out there.
– Double AA♦
yesterday
@DoubleAA Granted it was just one Edus HaMizrach Siddur, but I’ve never seen an Ashkenazi Siddur with this Nusach.
– DonielF
yesterday
3
Is there a reason to think that if a Jewish woman hadn't been a Jewish woman it would be more likely for her to have been a non-Jewish woman than to be a non-Jewish man?
– Alex
yesterday
Like everything else, it's not so black and white. Some Ashkenazim will change the text of the Siddur to make it more grammatically correct for women's usage (e.g. "Modah Ani" vs. "Modeh Ani") and some Sefardim will not change the text of the Siddur. In fact, in some Sefardi communities (and I'd actually venture to say this is the norm), women do not pray from the Siddur at all, so there is no need to change the text of the berachot.
– ezra
yesterday
By the way, just because a Siddur does not indicate a variant Nusach does not mean that Nusach does not exist. Plenty of Sefardi Siddurim do not print the women's variations of the berachot. Some of these changes are implied and are changed by the user, depending on their community's Minhag.
– ezra
yesterday