How do we rationalize a person's sins being solely their own when we have traditions that blame entire nations for certain acts?Parashat Shemini + ParaThe stoning of Achan's family“Fathers shall not be put to death because of sons, nor shall sons be put to death because of fathers” - Contradiction?Why did God sanction killing everything that breathes against the 7 nations?Why does there seem to be different standards for future sinners?Isn't the concept of mamzerut in violation of Ezekiel 18:19-20?“Fathers shall not be put to death because of sons, nor shall sons be put to death because of fathers” - Contradiction?what is the source that a parent carries the sins of their children when the children are minors?Rambam's seemingly contradictory statements about one who denies the Oral Law

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How do we rationalize a person's sins being solely their own when we have traditions that blame entire nations for certain acts?



Parashat Shemini + ParaThe stoning of Achan's family“Fathers shall not be put to death because of sons, nor shall sons be put to death because of fathers” - Contradiction?Why did God sanction killing everything that breathes against the 7 nations?Why does there seem to be different standards for future sinners?Isn't the concept of mamzerut in violation of Ezekiel 18:19-20?“Fathers shall not be put to death because of sons, nor shall sons be put to death because of fathers” - Contradiction?what is the source that a parent carries the sins of their children when the children are minors?Rambam's seemingly contradictory statements about one who denies the Oral Law










4















This is something I always found to be a bit of a contradiction.



The Torah states that a person's sins are their own to bear and that no one may die for the sins of another.




Parents shall not be put to death for children, nor children be put to
death for parents: a person shall be put to death only for his own
crime. - Devarim 24:16




At the same time, we see examples where the Torah cites Hahsem is punishing either entire nations of people or multiple generations of people for a previous wrongdoing.



  • The killing of the Egyptian children for the sins of their parents.

  • The killing of the Canaanites (including children)

  • The killing of the Amalekites (including children)

Cursing multiple generations of those who worship graven images and false gods:




You shall not bow down to them or serve them. For I the LORD your God
am an impassioned God, visiting the guilt of the parents upon the
children, upon the third and upon the fourth generations of those who
reject Me, - Shemot 20:5




Psalms even speaks of it being a blessing to inflict punishments against others in the way they inflicted them upon us.




Fair Babylon, you predator, a blessing on him who repays you in kind
what you have inflicted on us; a blessing on him who seizes your
babies and dashes them against the rocks! - Tehillim 137:8-9




How exactly do we rationalize this with regards to the idea that sins fall upon the individual alone and not their entire community/family/nation?










share|improve this question

















  • 1





    Duplicate? judaism.stackexchange.com/q/83420 judaism.stackexchange.com/q/36478 judaism.stackexchange.com/q/83035

    – DonielF
    yesterday












  • Possible duplicate of "Fathers shall not be put to death because of sons, nor shall sons be put to death because of fathers" - Contradiction?

    – user15464
    3 hours ago















4















This is something I always found to be a bit of a contradiction.



The Torah states that a person's sins are their own to bear and that no one may die for the sins of another.




Parents shall not be put to death for children, nor children be put to
death for parents: a person shall be put to death only for his own
crime. - Devarim 24:16




At the same time, we see examples where the Torah cites Hahsem is punishing either entire nations of people or multiple generations of people for a previous wrongdoing.



  • The killing of the Egyptian children for the sins of their parents.

  • The killing of the Canaanites (including children)

  • The killing of the Amalekites (including children)

Cursing multiple generations of those who worship graven images and false gods:




You shall not bow down to them or serve them. For I the LORD your God
am an impassioned God, visiting the guilt of the parents upon the
children, upon the third and upon the fourth generations of those who
reject Me, - Shemot 20:5




Psalms even speaks of it being a blessing to inflict punishments against others in the way they inflicted them upon us.




Fair Babylon, you predator, a blessing on him who repays you in kind
what you have inflicted on us; a blessing on him who seizes your
babies and dashes them against the rocks! - Tehillim 137:8-9




How exactly do we rationalize this with regards to the idea that sins fall upon the individual alone and not their entire community/family/nation?










share|improve this question

















  • 1





    Duplicate? judaism.stackexchange.com/q/83420 judaism.stackexchange.com/q/36478 judaism.stackexchange.com/q/83035

    – DonielF
    yesterday












  • Possible duplicate of "Fathers shall not be put to death because of sons, nor shall sons be put to death because of fathers" - Contradiction?

    – user15464
    3 hours ago













4












4








4








This is something I always found to be a bit of a contradiction.



The Torah states that a person's sins are their own to bear and that no one may die for the sins of another.




Parents shall not be put to death for children, nor children be put to
death for parents: a person shall be put to death only for his own
crime. - Devarim 24:16




At the same time, we see examples where the Torah cites Hahsem is punishing either entire nations of people or multiple generations of people for a previous wrongdoing.



  • The killing of the Egyptian children for the sins of their parents.

  • The killing of the Canaanites (including children)

  • The killing of the Amalekites (including children)

Cursing multiple generations of those who worship graven images and false gods:




You shall not bow down to them or serve them. For I the LORD your God
am an impassioned God, visiting the guilt of the parents upon the
children, upon the third and upon the fourth generations of those who
reject Me, - Shemot 20:5




Psalms even speaks of it being a blessing to inflict punishments against others in the way they inflicted them upon us.




Fair Babylon, you predator, a blessing on him who repays you in kind
what you have inflicted on us; a blessing on him who seizes your
babies and dashes them against the rocks! - Tehillim 137:8-9




How exactly do we rationalize this with regards to the idea that sins fall upon the individual alone and not their entire community/family/nation?










share|improve this question














This is something I always found to be a bit of a contradiction.



The Torah states that a person's sins are their own to bear and that no one may die for the sins of another.




Parents shall not be put to death for children, nor children be put to
death for parents: a person shall be put to death only for his own
crime. - Devarim 24:16




At the same time, we see examples where the Torah cites Hahsem is punishing either entire nations of people or multiple generations of people for a previous wrongdoing.



  • The killing of the Egyptian children for the sins of their parents.

  • The killing of the Canaanites (including children)

  • The killing of the Amalekites (including children)

Cursing multiple generations of those who worship graven images and false gods:




You shall not bow down to them or serve them. For I the LORD your God
am an impassioned God, visiting the guilt of the parents upon the
children, upon the third and upon the fourth generations of those who
reject Me, - Shemot 20:5




Psalms even speaks of it being a blessing to inflict punishments against others in the way they inflicted them upon us.




Fair Babylon, you predator, a blessing on him who repays you in kind
what you have inflicted on us; a blessing on him who seizes your
babies and dashes them against the rocks! - Tehillim 137:8-9




How exactly do we rationalize this with regards to the idea that sins fall upon the individual alone and not their entire community/family/nation?







sin curse contradiction






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked yesterday









AvriAvri

1,028112




1,028112







  • 1





    Duplicate? judaism.stackexchange.com/q/83420 judaism.stackexchange.com/q/36478 judaism.stackexchange.com/q/83035

    – DonielF
    yesterday












  • Possible duplicate of "Fathers shall not be put to death because of sons, nor shall sons be put to death because of fathers" - Contradiction?

    – user15464
    3 hours ago












  • 1





    Duplicate? judaism.stackexchange.com/q/83420 judaism.stackexchange.com/q/36478 judaism.stackexchange.com/q/83035

    – DonielF
    yesterday












  • Possible duplicate of "Fathers shall not be put to death because of sons, nor shall sons be put to death because of fathers" - Contradiction?

    – user15464
    3 hours ago







1




1





Duplicate? judaism.stackexchange.com/q/83420 judaism.stackexchange.com/q/36478 judaism.stackexchange.com/q/83035

– DonielF
yesterday






Duplicate? judaism.stackexchange.com/q/83420 judaism.stackexchange.com/q/36478 judaism.stackexchange.com/q/83035

– DonielF
yesterday














Possible duplicate of "Fathers shall not be put to death because of sons, nor shall sons be put to death because of fathers" - Contradiction?

– user15464
3 hours ago





Possible duplicate of "Fathers shall not be put to death because of sons, nor shall sons be put to death because of fathers" - Contradiction?

– user15464
3 hours ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















2














According to Sanhedrin 27b, children are punished for their fathers’ sins only when they follow in their footsteps; children who do not follow the sins of their fathers are not punished on their account.




ובנים בעון אבות לא והכתיב (שמות לד, ז) פוקד עון אבות על בנים התם כשאוחזין מעשה אבותיהן בידיהן



Are children not punished for their fathers’ sins? But it is written: He remembers the sins of the fathers on the children! That is when they grab hold of the actions of their fathers in their hands.




In all of the examples you brought, the children were just as guilty as the fathers.



Further, Sifri Devarim 280 understands that minors can be punished for their fathers’ sins:




איש בחטאו יומתו. גדולים מתים בעון עצמם, קטנים מתים בעון אבותם.



”Each man for his sin will they die” - Majors die for their own sins, minors die for their fathers’ sins.







share|improve this answer

























  • Can you explain further why "the children were just as guilty as the fathers" in each case?

    – barbecue
    yesterday






  • 1





    @barbecue The Egyptians tormented the Jews; their children tormented the Jews. The Canaanites were idol worshippers; their children were idol worshippers. Etc. Plus the underage children can be punished even when innocent for their parents’ sins. I think it’s fairly self-explanatory, really.

    – DonielF
    yesterday











  • My intention was that you add more detail to your answer to explain WHY the cases are different.

    – barbecue
    yesterday


















-1














  1. Your first quote is only relevant for a Beis Din, for Earthy punishments. One can not offer himself to be stoned instead of his son that sinned, for example.



  2. Traditionally (source needed) the souls are reincarnations of previous souls, bearing their deeds and judgments. Similarly to the 9-dots-4 lines puzzle, as we are unable to solve the justice/injustice paradox within this world (for example why little kids suffer terrible illnesses and death), we have to assume that both souls and judgments extend to the pre-after-world.



    Therefore G-d allows himself to judge single people, nations and generations by being able to see the big picture extending the limits of this world.







share|improve this answer























  • #1 isn’t necessarily true; see the Gemara I cite in my answer.

    – DonielF
    yesterday











  • @DonielF Do you mean "the children were just as guilty as the fathers."? So they are punished on their own - what the big deal?

    – Al Berko
    yesterday











  • The problem is that the Gemara applies both Pesukim to the Heavenly courts as well.

    – DonielF
    yesterday


















2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes








2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









2














According to Sanhedrin 27b, children are punished for their fathers’ sins only when they follow in their footsteps; children who do not follow the sins of their fathers are not punished on their account.




ובנים בעון אבות לא והכתיב (שמות לד, ז) פוקד עון אבות על בנים התם כשאוחזין מעשה אבותיהן בידיהן



Are children not punished for their fathers’ sins? But it is written: He remembers the sins of the fathers on the children! That is when they grab hold of the actions of their fathers in their hands.




In all of the examples you brought, the children were just as guilty as the fathers.



Further, Sifri Devarim 280 understands that minors can be punished for their fathers’ sins:




איש בחטאו יומתו. גדולים מתים בעון עצמם, קטנים מתים בעון אבותם.



”Each man for his sin will they die” - Majors die for their own sins, minors die for their fathers’ sins.







share|improve this answer

























  • Can you explain further why "the children were just as guilty as the fathers" in each case?

    – barbecue
    yesterday






  • 1





    @barbecue The Egyptians tormented the Jews; their children tormented the Jews. The Canaanites were idol worshippers; their children were idol worshippers. Etc. Plus the underage children can be punished even when innocent for their parents’ sins. I think it’s fairly self-explanatory, really.

    – DonielF
    yesterday











  • My intention was that you add more detail to your answer to explain WHY the cases are different.

    – barbecue
    yesterday















2














According to Sanhedrin 27b, children are punished for their fathers’ sins only when they follow in their footsteps; children who do not follow the sins of their fathers are not punished on their account.




ובנים בעון אבות לא והכתיב (שמות לד, ז) פוקד עון אבות על בנים התם כשאוחזין מעשה אבותיהן בידיהן



Are children not punished for their fathers’ sins? But it is written: He remembers the sins of the fathers on the children! That is when they grab hold of the actions of their fathers in their hands.




In all of the examples you brought, the children were just as guilty as the fathers.



Further, Sifri Devarim 280 understands that minors can be punished for their fathers’ sins:




איש בחטאו יומתו. גדולים מתים בעון עצמם, קטנים מתים בעון אבותם.



”Each man for his sin will they die” - Majors die for their own sins, minors die for their fathers’ sins.







share|improve this answer

























  • Can you explain further why "the children were just as guilty as the fathers" in each case?

    – barbecue
    yesterday






  • 1





    @barbecue The Egyptians tormented the Jews; their children tormented the Jews. The Canaanites were idol worshippers; their children were idol worshippers. Etc. Plus the underage children can be punished even when innocent for their parents’ sins. I think it’s fairly self-explanatory, really.

    – DonielF
    yesterday











  • My intention was that you add more detail to your answer to explain WHY the cases are different.

    – barbecue
    yesterday













2












2








2







According to Sanhedrin 27b, children are punished for their fathers’ sins only when they follow in their footsteps; children who do not follow the sins of their fathers are not punished on their account.




ובנים בעון אבות לא והכתיב (שמות לד, ז) פוקד עון אבות על בנים התם כשאוחזין מעשה אבותיהן בידיהן



Are children not punished for their fathers’ sins? But it is written: He remembers the sins of the fathers on the children! That is when they grab hold of the actions of their fathers in their hands.




In all of the examples you brought, the children were just as guilty as the fathers.



Further, Sifri Devarim 280 understands that minors can be punished for their fathers’ sins:




איש בחטאו יומתו. גדולים מתים בעון עצמם, קטנים מתים בעון אבותם.



”Each man for his sin will they die” - Majors die for their own sins, minors die for their fathers’ sins.







share|improve this answer















According to Sanhedrin 27b, children are punished for their fathers’ sins only when they follow in their footsteps; children who do not follow the sins of their fathers are not punished on their account.




ובנים בעון אבות לא והכתיב (שמות לד, ז) פוקד עון אבות על בנים התם כשאוחזין מעשה אבותיהן בידיהן



Are children not punished for their fathers’ sins? But it is written: He remembers the sins of the fathers on the children! That is when they grab hold of the actions of their fathers in their hands.




In all of the examples you brought, the children were just as guilty as the fathers.



Further, Sifri Devarim 280 understands that minors can be punished for their fathers’ sins:




איש בחטאו יומתו. גדולים מתים בעון עצמם, קטנים מתים בעון אבותם.



”Each man for his sin will they die” - Majors die for their own sins, minors die for their fathers’ sins.








share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited yesterday

























answered yesterday









DonielFDonielF

16.2k12584




16.2k12584












  • Can you explain further why "the children were just as guilty as the fathers" in each case?

    – barbecue
    yesterday






  • 1





    @barbecue The Egyptians tormented the Jews; their children tormented the Jews. The Canaanites were idol worshippers; their children were idol worshippers. Etc. Plus the underage children can be punished even when innocent for their parents’ sins. I think it’s fairly self-explanatory, really.

    – DonielF
    yesterday











  • My intention was that you add more detail to your answer to explain WHY the cases are different.

    – barbecue
    yesterday

















  • Can you explain further why "the children were just as guilty as the fathers" in each case?

    – barbecue
    yesterday






  • 1





    @barbecue The Egyptians tormented the Jews; their children tormented the Jews. The Canaanites were idol worshippers; their children were idol worshippers. Etc. Plus the underage children can be punished even when innocent for their parents’ sins. I think it’s fairly self-explanatory, really.

    – DonielF
    yesterday











  • My intention was that you add more detail to your answer to explain WHY the cases are different.

    – barbecue
    yesterday
















Can you explain further why "the children were just as guilty as the fathers" in each case?

– barbecue
yesterday





Can you explain further why "the children were just as guilty as the fathers" in each case?

– barbecue
yesterday




1




1





@barbecue The Egyptians tormented the Jews; their children tormented the Jews. The Canaanites were idol worshippers; their children were idol worshippers. Etc. Plus the underage children can be punished even when innocent for their parents’ sins. I think it’s fairly self-explanatory, really.

– DonielF
yesterday





@barbecue The Egyptians tormented the Jews; their children tormented the Jews. The Canaanites were idol worshippers; their children were idol worshippers. Etc. Plus the underage children can be punished even when innocent for their parents’ sins. I think it’s fairly self-explanatory, really.

– DonielF
yesterday













My intention was that you add more detail to your answer to explain WHY the cases are different.

– barbecue
yesterday





My intention was that you add more detail to your answer to explain WHY the cases are different.

– barbecue
yesterday











-1














  1. Your first quote is only relevant for a Beis Din, for Earthy punishments. One can not offer himself to be stoned instead of his son that sinned, for example.



  2. Traditionally (source needed) the souls are reincarnations of previous souls, bearing their deeds and judgments. Similarly to the 9-dots-4 lines puzzle, as we are unable to solve the justice/injustice paradox within this world (for example why little kids suffer terrible illnesses and death), we have to assume that both souls and judgments extend to the pre-after-world.



    Therefore G-d allows himself to judge single people, nations and generations by being able to see the big picture extending the limits of this world.







share|improve this answer























  • #1 isn’t necessarily true; see the Gemara I cite in my answer.

    – DonielF
    yesterday











  • @DonielF Do you mean "the children were just as guilty as the fathers."? So they are punished on their own - what the big deal?

    – Al Berko
    yesterday











  • The problem is that the Gemara applies both Pesukim to the Heavenly courts as well.

    – DonielF
    yesterday















-1














  1. Your first quote is only relevant for a Beis Din, for Earthy punishments. One can not offer himself to be stoned instead of his son that sinned, for example.



  2. Traditionally (source needed) the souls are reincarnations of previous souls, bearing their deeds and judgments. Similarly to the 9-dots-4 lines puzzle, as we are unable to solve the justice/injustice paradox within this world (for example why little kids suffer terrible illnesses and death), we have to assume that both souls and judgments extend to the pre-after-world.



    Therefore G-d allows himself to judge single people, nations and generations by being able to see the big picture extending the limits of this world.







share|improve this answer























  • #1 isn’t necessarily true; see the Gemara I cite in my answer.

    – DonielF
    yesterday











  • @DonielF Do you mean "the children were just as guilty as the fathers."? So they are punished on their own - what the big deal?

    – Al Berko
    yesterday











  • The problem is that the Gemara applies both Pesukim to the Heavenly courts as well.

    – DonielF
    yesterday













-1












-1








-1







  1. Your first quote is only relevant for a Beis Din, for Earthy punishments. One can not offer himself to be stoned instead of his son that sinned, for example.



  2. Traditionally (source needed) the souls are reincarnations of previous souls, bearing their deeds and judgments. Similarly to the 9-dots-4 lines puzzle, as we are unable to solve the justice/injustice paradox within this world (for example why little kids suffer terrible illnesses and death), we have to assume that both souls and judgments extend to the pre-after-world.



    Therefore G-d allows himself to judge single people, nations and generations by being able to see the big picture extending the limits of this world.







share|improve this answer













  1. Your first quote is only relevant for a Beis Din, for Earthy punishments. One can not offer himself to be stoned instead of his son that sinned, for example.



  2. Traditionally (source needed) the souls are reincarnations of previous souls, bearing their deeds and judgments. Similarly to the 9-dots-4 lines puzzle, as we are unable to solve the justice/injustice paradox within this world (for example why little kids suffer terrible illnesses and death), we have to assume that both souls and judgments extend to the pre-after-world.



    Therefore G-d allows himself to judge single people, nations and generations by being able to see the big picture extending the limits of this world.








share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered yesterday









Al BerkoAl Berko

6,2701529




6,2701529












  • #1 isn’t necessarily true; see the Gemara I cite in my answer.

    – DonielF
    yesterday











  • @DonielF Do you mean "the children were just as guilty as the fathers."? So they are punished on their own - what the big deal?

    – Al Berko
    yesterday











  • The problem is that the Gemara applies both Pesukim to the Heavenly courts as well.

    – DonielF
    yesterday

















  • #1 isn’t necessarily true; see the Gemara I cite in my answer.

    – DonielF
    yesterday











  • @DonielF Do you mean "the children were just as guilty as the fathers."? So they are punished on their own - what the big deal?

    – Al Berko
    yesterday











  • The problem is that the Gemara applies both Pesukim to the Heavenly courts as well.

    – DonielF
    yesterday
















#1 isn’t necessarily true; see the Gemara I cite in my answer.

– DonielF
yesterday





#1 isn’t necessarily true; see the Gemara I cite in my answer.

– DonielF
yesterday













@DonielF Do you mean "the children were just as guilty as the fathers."? So they are punished on their own - what the big deal?

– Al Berko
yesterday





@DonielF Do you mean "the children were just as guilty as the fathers."? So they are punished on their own - what the big deal?

– Al Berko
yesterday













The problem is that the Gemara applies both Pesukim to the Heavenly courts as well.

– DonielF
yesterday





The problem is that the Gemara applies both Pesukim to the Heavenly courts as well.

– DonielF
yesterday



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