Is it my responsibility to learn a new technology in my own time my employer wants to implement? The Next CEO of Stack OverflowAs a junior, is it inappropriate for my supervisor to expect me to study our stack in my own time?Learn on the (new) job or take time off (and how much) to learn?Need Advice: Transitioning from Public Scientist to Private ProgrammerLearn new (related) technologies or get certified?Employer wants me to learn new language/system - how can I refuse to do this?How can I convince people to take time from their schedule to learn other things?Getting my Ideas into my Company's software - Write specs or do it myself?Should I extend my time in office to learn new things?What to do when you do not learn anything newCan employer require me learn a new technology that I have no interest to learn?Will the technology I first learn determine the direction of my future career?

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Is it my responsibility to learn a new technology in my own time my employer wants to implement?



The Next CEO of Stack OverflowAs a junior, is it inappropriate for my supervisor to expect me to study our stack in my own time?Learn on the (new) job or take time off (and how much) to learn?Need Advice: Transitioning from Public Scientist to Private ProgrammerLearn new (related) technologies or get certified?Employer wants me to learn new language/system - how can I refuse to do this?How can I convince people to take time from their schedule to learn other things?Getting my Ideas into my Company's software - Write specs or do it myself?Should I extend my time in office to learn new things?What to do when you do not learn anything newCan employer require me learn a new technology that I have no interest to learn?Will the technology I first learn determine the direction of my future career?










144















I work as a web developer in the US. My company recently hired on someone with the intent of having them get us swapped over to using a new technology that I have no experience with. This new team member can be quoted as saying "It's not upon your employer to give you time to learn" and that we should all be doing this in our spare time at home. He even went so far as to suggesting that we all create GitHub projects and submit them to him for code review.



Is this normal? I understand that companies can and do introduce new technologies/frameworks/etc, but is it really on me to spend my non-work hours to learn these? I should indicate that I'm not against learning the new stuff, and honestly, in my free time (which, I have a spouse and a teenage daughter, so its rare) I probably will play around and see what I can learn. I just feel that the onus is on the employer to give some time to learn and adapt.










share|improve this question



















  • 57





    What power does this person have in your organization exactly? Do they actually have the power, to make their expectations of learning this new technology in your free time, something that will impact your performance review in the future?

    – Ramhound
    2 days ago






  • 4





    Yes, I agree. But, I live and work in Germany; cultural norms and legislation might be different where you work.

    – Roland
    2 days ago






  • 48





    It's not upon your employer to give you time to learn Sure, and is not my trouble if the system goes down while I'm at home, want me to study on my free time? Pay me.

    – William-H-M
    2 days ago






  • 4





    Are you salaried or hourly?

    – EJoshuaS
    2 days ago






  • 7





    Who is this "someone"? Do they have any actual power? They will be hard-pressed to force an entire team to switch technology if they don't plan on supporting the transition properly.

    – MonkeyZeus
    2 days ago















144















I work as a web developer in the US. My company recently hired on someone with the intent of having them get us swapped over to using a new technology that I have no experience with. This new team member can be quoted as saying "It's not upon your employer to give you time to learn" and that we should all be doing this in our spare time at home. He even went so far as to suggesting that we all create GitHub projects and submit them to him for code review.



Is this normal? I understand that companies can and do introduce new technologies/frameworks/etc, but is it really on me to spend my non-work hours to learn these? I should indicate that I'm not against learning the new stuff, and honestly, in my free time (which, I have a spouse and a teenage daughter, so its rare) I probably will play around and see what I can learn. I just feel that the onus is on the employer to give some time to learn and adapt.










share|improve this question



















  • 57





    What power does this person have in your organization exactly? Do they actually have the power, to make their expectations of learning this new technology in your free time, something that will impact your performance review in the future?

    – Ramhound
    2 days ago






  • 4





    Yes, I agree. But, I live and work in Germany; cultural norms and legislation might be different where you work.

    – Roland
    2 days ago






  • 48





    It's not upon your employer to give you time to learn Sure, and is not my trouble if the system goes down while I'm at home, want me to study on my free time? Pay me.

    – William-H-M
    2 days ago






  • 4





    Are you salaried or hourly?

    – EJoshuaS
    2 days ago






  • 7





    Who is this "someone"? Do they have any actual power? They will be hard-pressed to force an entire team to switch technology if they don't plan on supporting the transition properly.

    – MonkeyZeus
    2 days ago













144












144








144


10






I work as a web developer in the US. My company recently hired on someone with the intent of having them get us swapped over to using a new technology that I have no experience with. This new team member can be quoted as saying "It's not upon your employer to give you time to learn" and that we should all be doing this in our spare time at home. He even went so far as to suggesting that we all create GitHub projects and submit them to him for code review.



Is this normal? I understand that companies can and do introduce new technologies/frameworks/etc, but is it really on me to spend my non-work hours to learn these? I should indicate that I'm not against learning the new stuff, and honestly, in my free time (which, I have a spouse and a teenage daughter, so its rare) I probably will play around and see what I can learn. I just feel that the onus is on the employer to give some time to learn and adapt.










share|improve this question
















I work as a web developer in the US. My company recently hired on someone with the intent of having them get us swapped over to using a new technology that I have no experience with. This new team member can be quoted as saying "It's not upon your employer to give you time to learn" and that we should all be doing this in our spare time at home. He even went so far as to suggesting that we all create GitHub projects and submit them to him for code review.



Is this normal? I understand that companies can and do introduce new technologies/frameworks/etc, but is it really on me to spend my non-work hours to learn these? I should indicate that I'm not against learning the new stuff, and honestly, in my free time (which, I have a spouse and a teenage daughter, so its rare) I probably will play around and see what I can learn. I just feel that the onus is on the employer to give some time to learn and adapt.







career-development learning corporate-responsibility






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share|improve this question













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share|improve this question








edited yesterday









Philosophist

32




32










asked 2 days ago









PiousVenomPiousVenom

7692716




7692716







  • 57





    What power does this person have in your organization exactly? Do they actually have the power, to make their expectations of learning this new technology in your free time, something that will impact your performance review in the future?

    – Ramhound
    2 days ago






  • 4





    Yes, I agree. But, I live and work in Germany; cultural norms and legislation might be different where you work.

    – Roland
    2 days ago






  • 48





    It's not upon your employer to give you time to learn Sure, and is not my trouble if the system goes down while I'm at home, want me to study on my free time? Pay me.

    – William-H-M
    2 days ago






  • 4





    Are you salaried or hourly?

    – EJoshuaS
    2 days ago






  • 7





    Who is this "someone"? Do they have any actual power? They will be hard-pressed to force an entire team to switch technology if they don't plan on supporting the transition properly.

    – MonkeyZeus
    2 days ago












  • 57





    What power does this person have in your organization exactly? Do they actually have the power, to make their expectations of learning this new technology in your free time, something that will impact your performance review in the future?

    – Ramhound
    2 days ago






  • 4





    Yes, I agree. But, I live and work in Germany; cultural norms and legislation might be different where you work.

    – Roland
    2 days ago






  • 48





    It's not upon your employer to give you time to learn Sure, and is not my trouble if the system goes down while I'm at home, want me to study on my free time? Pay me.

    – William-H-M
    2 days ago






  • 4





    Are you salaried or hourly?

    – EJoshuaS
    2 days ago






  • 7





    Who is this "someone"? Do they have any actual power? They will be hard-pressed to force an entire team to switch technology if they don't plan on supporting the transition properly.

    – MonkeyZeus
    2 days ago







57




57





What power does this person have in your organization exactly? Do they actually have the power, to make their expectations of learning this new technology in your free time, something that will impact your performance review in the future?

– Ramhound
2 days ago





What power does this person have in your organization exactly? Do they actually have the power, to make their expectations of learning this new technology in your free time, something that will impact your performance review in the future?

– Ramhound
2 days ago




4




4





Yes, I agree. But, I live and work in Germany; cultural norms and legislation might be different where you work.

– Roland
2 days ago





Yes, I agree. But, I live and work in Germany; cultural norms and legislation might be different where you work.

– Roland
2 days ago




48




48





It's not upon your employer to give you time to learn Sure, and is not my trouble if the system goes down while I'm at home, want me to study on my free time? Pay me.

– William-H-M
2 days ago





It's not upon your employer to give you time to learn Sure, and is not my trouble if the system goes down while I'm at home, want me to study on my free time? Pay me.

– William-H-M
2 days ago




4




4





Are you salaried or hourly?

– EJoshuaS
2 days ago





Are you salaried or hourly?

– EJoshuaS
2 days ago




7




7





Who is this "someone"? Do they have any actual power? They will be hard-pressed to force an entire team to switch technology if they don't plan on supporting the transition properly.

– MonkeyZeus
2 days ago





Who is this "someone"? Do they have any actual power? They will be hard-pressed to force an entire team to switch technology if they don't plan on supporting the transition properly.

– MonkeyZeus
2 days ago










14 Answers
14






active

oldest

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187















Is this normal?




In my experience, this is not normal.



What typically happens is your employer would work with you in the transition by supporting you with training. Or alternatively, you employer could allow you a bit more time to do tasks in this new technology to account for the learning curve.



I will say however, as a developer myself, it is on me to stay current in my chosen stack and to not become out dated.



I would also suggest you talk to you manager about a cooperative training effort to move towards this new technology that would include some of your time, the companies time, and maybe even a bit of paid training (instructor lead or online).






share|improve this answer




















  • 232





    For me an easy rule of thumb is: If I want to learn something, it's on my time and dime. If the company needs me to learn something, it's on their time and dime.

    – Stig Tore
    2 days ago






  • 2





    Also it's a good hint about the job itself. With myriad of things you can choose as your stack it should be understandable that YOUR thing is not the one company have chosen. So it's your thing or company thing that you would need to put your time into. And company should somehow reimburse you or pay for the help for forfeiting your own thing.

    – SZCZERZO KŁY
    2 days ago






  • 5





    @StigTore Sadly the employer may think it's easier to just hire new staff which are versed in the new technology. Their ill-guided perspective could lead them to think "Well if a new employee already knows this stuff because they did it in their spare time then my current employees should be able to follow suit if they wish to keep their job." Even further sadly is that when a new employee is undoubtedly hired in the near future then the employer will wonder "Why the heck is this guy so much better than my guys? I paid for their training for crying out loud!"

    – MonkeyZeus
    2 days ago






  • 5





    @MonkeyZeus The employer had a product before the switch. The knowledge that the dev's acquired over time working on the previous iterations is extremely valuable. They should have a better understanding of the direction the product is going and what unique challenges the industry their coding for brings. Old staff might not code as fast but I would never replace someone unless I felt that they were regressing or stagnating in their professional development. You stop learning and I'll stop considering you for better positions. (Sending employees on good training courses is usually a win win)

    – Tolure
    2 days ago






  • 4





    An industry sets expectations, and it's important for people to reset those expectations when they become unreasonable and/or inconsistent w/ other professions. I previously worked as an actuary--a job where you take professional exams over the course of many (10+) years, increasing knowledge, status, & position--and folks received about 1-2 weeks off (scheduled at their own preference), per exam (about 1 exam per year), for uninterrupted study--e.g. 2-4 hours per week, culminating in maybe 3-5 days off just before the exam. This seems to me a reasonable baseline also for software dev.

    – michael
    yesterday


















107















This new team member can be quoted as saying "It's not upon your
employer to give you time to learn" and that we should all be doing
this in our spare time at home.




This new team member is confused.



And unless this new team member is your boss, or is funding your paycheck, then this new team member can be safely ignored.



If an employer wants you to learn something new, then your employer should be happy to pay for that learning on company time.



Of course if the new technology interests you or hold long term promise for your career, you may wish to augment that with your own learning in your own time - that's just good career advice. And that's your personal choice to make.




Is this normal?




Sadly, there are some confused people we all get to work with.



That doesn't make any of them right.






share|improve this answer


















  • 4





    Indeed, simply continue to work hard, and politely ignore these "rantings" from new employee.

    – Fattie
    2 days ago






  • 11





    ^ this. Your boss asks you to do something. That means it's your job.

    – xyious
    2 days ago






  • 4





    @Joe Strazzere, I like your answer, but would make 2 improvements (IMHO). First, "confused" is too forgiving. The new team member is mistaken. Second, while it's true that he could be safely ignored, I'd take that a step further and correct him, so he knows not to make similar attempts in the future.

    – donjuedo
    2 days ago






  • 7





    @donjuedo - I was trying to be nice by using the term "confused".

    – Joe Strazzere
    yesterday






  • 4





    Before ignoring the new team member make sure to check with your boss for clarification of roles if you're not certain that this team member isn't over you in some way. Sometimes roles are not communicated as explicitly as they should be, and sometimes a team member wedges themselves into a leadership role, and while this isn't "fair", it can wind up giving them authority. So it's only safe to ignore them if you're sure neither of these situations has occurred or is occurring. Otherwise you can find yourself labeled "not a team player". But definitely don't follow orders from a true peer.

    – bob
    yesterday



















44














Good companies invest in their staff.



Technology is a rapidly changing industry - there is always something new to learn. It is much cheaper to keep a current member of staff up to standard than to replace them with a new hire, which costs time and money in recruitment and getting up to speed. Good companies recognize this, and provide their staff with training in whatever technologies they use. It is therefore reasonable for you to hope that your employer will give you time and resources to learn new technologies during work hours.



Not every employer realizes this, they see the obvious cost of providing training and do not recognize the hidden costs of failing to do that. Sadly this is common.



However...



Your employer won't care more about your career than you do - it's your career.



When you first got a developer job, you (probably) didn't turn up on their doorstep saying, "I know nothing about development, pay me while I learn, then eventually I'll do some work for you!". You probably learned how to develop on your own time, maybe as part of full-time education, maybe getting some qualifications (which may have included a degree), before you got the job. You chose your career, and invested in it.



Now, some time later, your current knowledge is not enough. You need to learn more. Although a good employer will help you with this... ultimately, it's you that needs to learn it. This may involve learning on your own time, putting your own energy and resources (time/money/etc.) into it. It is your career, after all. If you don't want to keep up to date with new technologies, your employer may decide to replace you with someone who will. Then, when you are looking for a new job, you may be competing with other candidates who have already learned those new technologies, while you will be left explaining that your former employer didn't give you training so you never did.



Therefore, while both employer and employee should invest in ongoing professional development and learning, whether the employer does this or not, the employee must, or else they will find themselves lacking skills and knowledge that are needed in modern development.






share|improve this answer




















  • 6





    For me, this is the right response. It's an odd middle ground. Yes, we should learn. Yes, an employer should provide training. But assuming worst case, you have to take responsibility and keep up to date and stay sharp on your skills because your employer WILL replace you. That's the nature of the beast.

    – ShinEmperor
    2 days ago






  • 32





    There's a big difference between failing to keep up with the state of the art and not feeling compelled to jump on the bandwagon of every "monster of the week" JS framework your project lead digs up. What if what the company picked isn't career advancing, would you still recommend to learn it in your free time?

    – Ruther Rendommeleigh
    2 days ago






  • 5





    @BittermanAndy "What will help my career in this company?" is certainly a valid question to ask yourself, but, personally, I wouldn't feel compelled to bind myself too tightly to a company that demands unpaid overtime just so I may keep my job. I might decide to learn the skills that I consider more useful / in demand instead and look for a place that respects their developers more. Free time is a rather limited resource, after all.

    – Ruther Rendommeleigh
    2 days ago







  • 3





    Agreed. Hence why I specifically mentioned that good employers will provide training. But not all employers are good employers, and not everyone can afford to leave a bad employer at the drop of a hat. Sometimes, "what's best for my job" is the right question. Other times, "what's best for my career" is the right question. It changes per person, and over time.

    – BittermanAndy
    2 days ago






  • 4





    There is a huge difference in learning something to get hired and learning something to do your job. So you learn java, get a job as a java dev and then your company switches to erlang. Does that mean that you should now go out and learn erlang in your own time ? no. Why ? You're an employee, you need to learn erlang to do your job. That means it's work time. This is not a grey area. You learn for work, you're doing something your employer asked you to do. It's clearly work time.

    – xyious
    2 days ago


















14














As a rule of thumb, what you do in your free time is none of your employer's business. Their right to assign tasks is limited to work hours. They hired you for a specific position, presumably after interviewing you for that position, and the skill set that you had at that time. They have since then changed their mind and decided they want a different skill set. Whether that means hiring someone else or training existing employees, it is a strategic decision the business made and any expenses related to that are theirs to cover.



Now, learning new technologies is part of the job, and your employer would have reason to complain if you refused to learn the new tech stack at all. Considering the resources available today, one could also argue that it is reasonable to expect an experienced software developer to familiarize themself with a new language or framework without the employer providing extensive training. However, the key difference between training that you do of your own accord and training mandated by your employer is who gets to decide if, what, when and how much you learn. If they pay for it, they get to choose. If not, it's your time to do with as you will.



Personally, if I consider the tech in question worthwhile and the company is otherwise decent, I don't mind "throwing them a bone" and picking that language or framework for my next hobby project, but to demand this kind of unpaid overtime raises all sorts of red flags.



In my experience, the generally accepted practice is to factor learning time into the estimates of any project that requires employees to learn a new technology. Adding a team member with the desired skill set is a good way to speed up that process, but it will still delay the project. Whether or not that's worth it is up to the business to decide.






share|improve this answer
































    6














    Broadly speaking, I feel like the responses to these sorts of questions don't consider the reality of the market.



    In short, being a developer is all about knowledge and experience and often knowing more means you can experience more which then reinforces what you know. It makes you extraordinarily valuable if you can do this.



    That said, consider your options. Ok, fine your employer won't train you. Are you ready to bust your quotes? Are you ready to be slower than other team members who went ahead and DID do the learning on their own time.



    My issue with the responses here is they're not pragmatic. If I were told "Learn this tech in your spare time." and I overheard another dev saying "I'm not going to do that. It's MY time.", I'm learning that tech in my free time. Because I'm ambitious and I know I'll perform more effectively if I do so.



    This is the REALITY of things. If you don't, someone else will. I'm not saying it's right or fair, I'm saying that's how this goes. But my perspective is: To be a developer, you must ALWAYS be learning. ALWAYS. It never stops, not even a little. Put in the time and you'll get a comfortable job and good money.



    In a perfect world, we would be trained and taken care of and all would be well.But the world is an imperfect place. But more basically, the way I see it is: I'm a dev, I should be learning in my free time anyways because my career depends on it.






    share|improve this answer


















    • 2





      Would you say that this line of reasoning still applies if e.g. you consider the new tech stack the company picked to be a dead end? There are more options than just "learn what the company picked" and "learn nothing at all".

      – Ruther Rendommeleigh
      2 days ago






    • 2





      A particular tech might be a career dead end, but not learning it might be a dead end in the current job. It then becomes a strategic question of whether the employee's job or career is more important to them, at that time of their life. (For most people the answer to that question varies over time).

      – BittermanAndy
      2 days ago






    • 5





      This answer lambastes the other answers as not being "practical", but I think this answer is one of the least practical here - it's far too absolute, and makes absolutely no distinction between "Technology we need and that will be useful to your career" and "Programming Smalltalk-80 to interface with MinoIta printers over Token Ring." Seriously. If your boss said, "Hey, I need you to spend your weekends learning Pascal so that you can maintain the fax software" your response should not be "I'm learning that tech on my own time because I'm ambitious."

      – Kevin
      2 days ago






    • 4





      There's a big difference between "I have decided to swat up on some new technologies on a Sunday night for the benefit of my career", and "I am swatting up on some new technologies on a Sunday night because a new colleague ordered me to". You may end up swatting up on new technologies on a Sunday night, but at least do it for the right reasons... and don't let the colleague continue to believe that his suggested reason is valid, because it's not.

      – Lightness Races in Orbit
      yesterday







    • 2





      I think, your comment doesn't consider reality of life. One simply has other stuff to do than work and learn for work. If the employer doesn't pay the learning, than it will have to go on the fly. Good devs learn new technologies while doing them, only tasks will be done slower.

      – kap
      yesterday


















    3














    The new guy is almost right, the following statement is true in general:




    "It's not upon your employer to give you time to learn"

    and we should all be [learning] in our spare time at home.




    Although this is correct from a certain perspective, it is not correct in your circumstance.



    In general:



    1. It is actually on you to be familiar with new things.

      This is a part of having a long career in IT. I don't mean that you should know all the new stuff, just that a web developer should be aware of anything big that comes out of Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Twitter, etc.

    By "aware" I mean that you should know approximately what it is and what the supposed advantages are (why people are choosing it).

    I do not mean that you should learn each thing that comes out (that's not even possible).



    In your case:



    1. You are competent with your current work, and your employer wants to pivot in a new direction.

      In this case it is appropriate for you to expect work time to be used learning the "new thing".


    I just feel that the onus is on the employer to give some time to learn and adapt




    You are correct.

    However, I would recommend that in the near term (until you are competent in the new tech) that you take some time from your spouse and daughter and invest it "in your career" so you will be ahead of the other people learning this, instead of the laggard.



    This answer assumes that the "new thing" is (in your opinion) worth learning.

    If that isn't true then the "home time away from your family" might be better spent looking for a new job (or learning something that your next job might need).






    share|improve this answer























    • Why people are doing it, cause a google search result told everyone the same thing. No wonder google apis are so in vogue today...

      – marshal craft
      yesterday






    • 3





      Also you are recommending to take time from family, to invest in a job, technology, which can come and go at the slightest whim. That is not responsible advice, or even necessary.

      – marshal craft
      yesterday











    • Hmmm maybe wording comes off a bit weird, not terrible answer, +1

      – marshal craft
      yesterday











    • @marshalcraft Yes, I am suggesting some time from family (etc.) be taken for study at home. Enough to ensure that OP is at least in the middle of the line learning the new stuff (maybe no time at home, maybe hours). I say this because OP has a family and presumably wants a career so he can provide for them... and the truth is that (figuratively speaking) sometimes at work the tail gets cut off.

      – J. Chris Compton
      yesterday


















    2














    Totally not. Not even worth discussing it.
    Your free time is yours. If they want you to spend extra time - they have to pay overtime.
    If you agree to study for free for them next time they may ask you to do accounting for them on your spare time.






    share|improve this answer






























      2














      In all the discussions, I see people debating norms concerning right and wrong. While these ideas are good compasses to keep us well regulated when nobody is looking, it rarely serves us well when another party is involved and exercising leverage against us (i.e. paycheck).



      Generally speaking, what is okay and isn't okay is based on the perspective of the individual being requested action of.



      In my experience, I've been asked to do things I wasn't entirely pleased with. When those things happen, I feel that the energy of being spurred to action by an overly demanding employer is to look for your next place to land at. Outwardly complaining will weaken your negotiating position as they will have time to try and replace you before you get to ultimatums. Don't tell them you're looking. Just spring it up when the opportunity is in your hands (and not kind of, but you have your first day of new work scheduled). If notice isn't possible, don't worry about it. You don't owe courtesies to people who disrespect your time.



      Emotional events can really have us looking for divine justice, but here in the real world, we tend to get what we get. Don't let pride or a sense of justice weaken your position with a boss who wants off the clock work with no compensation. And if you worry about the team when you're on the way out the door and your boss asks you to stay, ask for what staying is REALLY worth (at this point) to you (and staying might now be worth it at this point, but I like putting dollar signs on things) and negotiate work conditions at that time. If negotiations fall apart, remind your boss that he has at least one employee who doesn't mind doing stuff for free. If he looks like he/she is considering it, you would have made the world a better place with a loud mouth in check.



      As you consider this answer, I would like to refer you to MC Hawking, because I believe laughing is super important in stressful situations: All My Shootings Be Drivebys






      share|improve this answer










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        1














        Take a compromise approach and differentiate yourself in the process



        Assuming the new technology stack is 'industry-relevant' (rather than just a specific proprietary setup in your particular company) there are likely to be benefits for both yourself and your employer in engaging with that learning process in a "proactive" sort of way. For yourself it would be opportunities in both this company, and potentially to look elsewhere in the future.



        In my experience the employer would typically offer some training or at least handover of some kind (what's the role of your new team member? Implementing and handing over the new stack?) but that could just be something like access to Pluralsight or similar, rather than an actual detailed and specific training course or on-the-job training.



        However... there are likely several people in your position (you described it as "getting us swapped over" and I'm assuming that's a team of at least 3-4 people who work on this stack) on a spectrum of "I'm fully responsible for my own career and being fitted to the new environment" through to "The company requires us to be fluent in Stack X so we require the company to provide training in Stack X".



        Where do you want to be on that 'spectrum'?



        If it benefits both yourself and the company, I'd propose taking a hybrid (compromise) approach, e.g.:



        • the company gives you 2 hours (or whatever is appropriate) per day and you spend 1 hour per day

        • the company funds relevant certifications and allows some time to study during the work day but you take the exam in your own time

        • similar "giving from both sides" approaches.

        The benefits of this are:



        • you benefit to a greater degree and potentially can get employment elsewhere in the future with a more "desirable" technology stack.

        • your employer sees you as willing to develop, take on new stuff, etc

        • you "get in at the beginning" and potentially are able to become more of an expert on this and be 'senior' (in knowledge) to others.

        • you can talk about this experience in future interviews and come out of it in a positive light!





        share|improve this answer

























        • Not really part of the answer but I have had this argument/debate with people so many times! "If the company requires it, they need to provide the resources [including time]" vs "I need to adapt to my new environment" One has the sense of its own agency and the other is just at the mercy of external forces....

          – seventyeightist
          2 days ago












        • +1 for seeking a middle ground. Black and white thinking is good for working with computers, but not for working with humans.

          – krubo
          yesterday



















        0














        To coincide with many of the answers already offered, I will point out something significant about onus. The truth is that, especially in business, there is no such thing. You are in a competitive economy where everyone is attempting to do what is in their own best interest.



        That being said, your boss and this new employee are not working in their own best interest by requiring that you train yourself on your own time. Trust is an asset, which they have in you. They lose that asset and start over with a brand-spanking new employee if they require this of you and you don't comply.



        You can point this out to them openly and in good faith. Tell them that your education is as much theirs as it is yours if you are to be in a mutually functional relationship with them. There is no hierarchy. Your "boss" just has a different job than you.



        If this new employee wishes to let himself be taken advantage of... it's still not just on him. You also suffer from the repricussions of wasted time and increased frustration if he burns himself out.



        There is always a limit to how much you could benefit from someone at their expense and still benefit overall. You just need to consider the bigger picture and remind yourself that all social interaction is pointless if there is no mutual benefit.






        share|improve this answer








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          0














          No, it's not normal.



          You're hired to job X. Job X uses techs A, B and C and frameworks M and N.



          If something else is introduced, a new language or a framework (whatever really), it's up to the company to train its employee's to use it. Or, of course, take any of the following actions:



          • Allocate time (during work hours)

          • Offer courses and/or seminars to be followed

          • Offer usage of online/class courses to be followed

          • Get external experts to come and give a training to a whole department

          • Offer paid overtime hours for out-of-business-hours self-study

          Simply put: you get paid for the amount of hours stipulated in your contract to do the job also stipulated there.



          Anything outside of the job you were hired for and / or outside of contractual hours should be either a flat "no" or negotiated if you're open to the idea.



          If you do work (or study in this case), outside of your contract for the company, without an agreement, you've freely given them your time (and possibly increased your value for the company, also for free).






          share|improve this answer






























            0














            Is it normal that a company wants to switch technology?



            Yes it is, but hopefully it's not the norm. At my last company we had website written in ancient language but we eventually rewrote the entire site to a completely new language. Lots of new things to learn and it was fun.



            Is it normal they want you to spend your own time to learn?



            Depends on what it is. For example, if I wrote in C and we wrote a console app, and we want to port that to Win32, I would expect minimal problems adjusting and would expect the developers to learn Win32. You already know C and we hired you to write C software, not a framework or technology. So I'd expect you to adjust as needed. If a lawyer got a tough case, would you expect he only got on it 9-5 during normal hours? If a burglary police got a case, would you expect him to only work 9-5 M-F to solve your case?



            Now if this was a completely new language, then yes, I would help assist that. I would expect developers to learn something on their own but would expect most of it done during working hours.






            share|improve this answer






























              0














              If it is as skill that the workplace requires, it is the workplaces responsibility to either hire people with that skill or train the people they have so they can acquire that skill.



              Every large company has a section within HR that is responsible for training, for keeping track of the skills that people have, the skills their jobs require, and to make a plan about closing that gap.



              There are even international norms which explicitly require such behaviour. For example, ISO 27002 for information security states in chapter 7.2.1 f)




              Management responsibilities should include ensuring that employees and
              contractors: [...] continue to have the appropriate skills and
              qualifications and are educated on a regular basis;




              Note the two key phrases: Management responsibility and are educated (not "educate themselves").



              ISO 9001 for quality management has similar requirements and identifies in chapter 7.2 the responsibility of the organization to actively identify training requirements and to actively deliver training. (and document it and some other things)



              Again, keywords: The responsibility is on the organisation and the organisation is the active part.



              Now in IT there are a lot of intrinsically motivated people who develop their skills outside of work and there is nothing wrong with that. But there is a big difference between someone learning a new skill because they want to, because it interests them, and the company basically telling someone to do free work in their free time.




              I sometimes wonder what questions people ask here, then I realize that it's because what the hell crazy people are walking around in the workplace?



              To be absolutely clear: This new hire is full of shit. Expect more of the kind from him. Don't give in. Why would you do free work? The company doesn't give you free money, does it?






              share|improve this answer






























                -1















                Is this normal?




                Yes, this is pretty standard in software development in general and critical if you happen to be a consultant. I've personally had PMs say "We're going to put you on a new team. Start doing some bedtime reading on Framework XYZ". Ideally, you learn on the job while you are working in addition to any time spent outside of work. Typically you will not be expected to learn a radically different technology like going from Python to C. Learning new frameworks, libraries, and languages is part of a career in development.




                is it really on me to spend my non-work hours to learn these?




                That is up to you to evaluate your situation, skills and career goals. Is this a new framework that you can figure out on the job and "fake it 'til you make it", or will this require serious study time to get acquainted with a drastically different technology? Is your job going to be in jeopardy if the rest of the team picks up this technology at home in the next couple of weeks, while it takes you a couple of months of dedicated on the job learning? Is this a skill worth mastering that can improve your resume?






                share|improve this answer








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                • 5





                  If this is the standard that you've experienced then you have been working for sub-par employers. Anything you do for the company's benefit should be billable time and if your company isn't down with that, it may be worth re-evaluating whether you want to continue working there.

                  – aleppke
                  2 days ago






                • 2





                  Re:" if the rest of the team picks up this technology at home in the next couple of weeks, while it takes you a couple of months of dedicated on the job learning?". So you really think something that can be learned in a couple of weeks in a person's spare time at home would take months while on the job? Your example of PMs personally telling you to do some bedtime reading doesn't seem like a task you've been assigned; seems more like just a heads up we are using this technology. They probably just hope you'll read an overview or 2 so you have a clue on day 1.

                  – Dunk
                  2 days ago






                • 1





                  Bloody well is not normal in software dev. Just because you as a dev like to learn, it's definitely not normal for a company to demand unpaid overtime. Luckily, in case of OP, it's just some random new dude whom does not sign the paychecks. Definitely a -1 suggesting this is normal

                  – rkeet
                  yesterday









                protected by Community yesterday



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                14 Answers
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                14 Answers
                14






                active

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                187















                Is this normal?




                In my experience, this is not normal.



                What typically happens is your employer would work with you in the transition by supporting you with training. Or alternatively, you employer could allow you a bit more time to do tasks in this new technology to account for the learning curve.



                I will say however, as a developer myself, it is on me to stay current in my chosen stack and to not become out dated.



                I would also suggest you talk to you manager about a cooperative training effort to move towards this new technology that would include some of your time, the companies time, and maybe even a bit of paid training (instructor lead or online).






                share|improve this answer




















                • 232





                  For me an easy rule of thumb is: If I want to learn something, it's on my time and dime. If the company needs me to learn something, it's on their time and dime.

                  – Stig Tore
                  2 days ago






                • 2





                  Also it's a good hint about the job itself. With myriad of things you can choose as your stack it should be understandable that YOUR thing is not the one company have chosen. So it's your thing or company thing that you would need to put your time into. And company should somehow reimburse you or pay for the help for forfeiting your own thing.

                  – SZCZERZO KŁY
                  2 days ago






                • 5





                  @StigTore Sadly the employer may think it's easier to just hire new staff which are versed in the new technology. Their ill-guided perspective could lead them to think "Well if a new employee already knows this stuff because they did it in their spare time then my current employees should be able to follow suit if they wish to keep their job." Even further sadly is that when a new employee is undoubtedly hired in the near future then the employer will wonder "Why the heck is this guy so much better than my guys? I paid for their training for crying out loud!"

                  – MonkeyZeus
                  2 days ago






                • 5





                  @MonkeyZeus The employer had a product before the switch. The knowledge that the dev's acquired over time working on the previous iterations is extremely valuable. They should have a better understanding of the direction the product is going and what unique challenges the industry their coding for brings. Old staff might not code as fast but I would never replace someone unless I felt that they were regressing or stagnating in their professional development. You stop learning and I'll stop considering you for better positions. (Sending employees on good training courses is usually a win win)

                  – Tolure
                  2 days ago






                • 4





                  An industry sets expectations, and it's important for people to reset those expectations when they become unreasonable and/or inconsistent w/ other professions. I previously worked as an actuary--a job where you take professional exams over the course of many (10+) years, increasing knowledge, status, & position--and folks received about 1-2 weeks off (scheduled at their own preference), per exam (about 1 exam per year), for uninterrupted study--e.g. 2-4 hours per week, culminating in maybe 3-5 days off just before the exam. This seems to me a reasonable baseline also for software dev.

                  – michael
                  yesterday















                187















                Is this normal?




                In my experience, this is not normal.



                What typically happens is your employer would work with you in the transition by supporting you with training. Or alternatively, you employer could allow you a bit more time to do tasks in this new technology to account for the learning curve.



                I will say however, as a developer myself, it is on me to stay current in my chosen stack and to not become out dated.



                I would also suggest you talk to you manager about a cooperative training effort to move towards this new technology that would include some of your time, the companies time, and maybe even a bit of paid training (instructor lead or online).






                share|improve this answer




















                • 232





                  For me an easy rule of thumb is: If I want to learn something, it's on my time and dime. If the company needs me to learn something, it's on their time and dime.

                  – Stig Tore
                  2 days ago






                • 2





                  Also it's a good hint about the job itself. With myriad of things you can choose as your stack it should be understandable that YOUR thing is not the one company have chosen. So it's your thing or company thing that you would need to put your time into. And company should somehow reimburse you or pay for the help for forfeiting your own thing.

                  – SZCZERZO KŁY
                  2 days ago






                • 5





                  @StigTore Sadly the employer may think it's easier to just hire new staff which are versed in the new technology. Their ill-guided perspective could lead them to think "Well if a new employee already knows this stuff because they did it in their spare time then my current employees should be able to follow suit if they wish to keep their job." Even further sadly is that when a new employee is undoubtedly hired in the near future then the employer will wonder "Why the heck is this guy so much better than my guys? I paid for their training for crying out loud!"

                  – MonkeyZeus
                  2 days ago






                • 5





                  @MonkeyZeus The employer had a product before the switch. The knowledge that the dev's acquired over time working on the previous iterations is extremely valuable. They should have a better understanding of the direction the product is going and what unique challenges the industry their coding for brings. Old staff might not code as fast but I would never replace someone unless I felt that they were regressing or stagnating in their professional development. You stop learning and I'll stop considering you for better positions. (Sending employees on good training courses is usually a win win)

                  – Tolure
                  2 days ago






                • 4





                  An industry sets expectations, and it's important for people to reset those expectations when they become unreasonable and/or inconsistent w/ other professions. I previously worked as an actuary--a job where you take professional exams over the course of many (10+) years, increasing knowledge, status, & position--and folks received about 1-2 weeks off (scheduled at their own preference), per exam (about 1 exam per year), for uninterrupted study--e.g. 2-4 hours per week, culminating in maybe 3-5 days off just before the exam. This seems to me a reasonable baseline also for software dev.

                  – michael
                  yesterday













                187












                187








                187








                Is this normal?




                In my experience, this is not normal.



                What typically happens is your employer would work with you in the transition by supporting you with training. Or alternatively, you employer could allow you a bit more time to do tasks in this new technology to account for the learning curve.



                I will say however, as a developer myself, it is on me to stay current in my chosen stack and to not become out dated.



                I would also suggest you talk to you manager about a cooperative training effort to move towards this new technology that would include some of your time, the companies time, and maybe even a bit of paid training (instructor lead or online).






                share|improve this answer
















                Is this normal?




                In my experience, this is not normal.



                What typically happens is your employer would work with you in the transition by supporting you with training. Or alternatively, you employer could allow you a bit more time to do tasks in this new technology to account for the learning curve.



                I will say however, as a developer myself, it is on me to stay current in my chosen stack and to not become out dated.



                I would also suggest you talk to you manager about a cooperative training effort to move towards this new technology that would include some of your time, the companies time, and maybe even a bit of paid training (instructor lead or online).







                share|improve this answer














                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer








                edited 2 days ago

























                answered 2 days ago









                Mister PositiveMister Positive

                62.9k34206250




                62.9k34206250







                • 232





                  For me an easy rule of thumb is: If I want to learn something, it's on my time and dime. If the company needs me to learn something, it's on their time and dime.

                  – Stig Tore
                  2 days ago






                • 2





                  Also it's a good hint about the job itself. With myriad of things you can choose as your stack it should be understandable that YOUR thing is not the one company have chosen. So it's your thing or company thing that you would need to put your time into. And company should somehow reimburse you or pay for the help for forfeiting your own thing.

                  – SZCZERZO KŁY
                  2 days ago






                • 5





                  @StigTore Sadly the employer may think it's easier to just hire new staff which are versed in the new technology. Their ill-guided perspective could lead them to think "Well if a new employee already knows this stuff because they did it in their spare time then my current employees should be able to follow suit if they wish to keep their job." Even further sadly is that when a new employee is undoubtedly hired in the near future then the employer will wonder "Why the heck is this guy so much better than my guys? I paid for their training for crying out loud!"

                  – MonkeyZeus
                  2 days ago






                • 5





                  @MonkeyZeus The employer had a product before the switch. The knowledge that the dev's acquired over time working on the previous iterations is extremely valuable. They should have a better understanding of the direction the product is going and what unique challenges the industry their coding for brings. Old staff might not code as fast but I would never replace someone unless I felt that they were regressing or stagnating in their professional development. You stop learning and I'll stop considering you for better positions. (Sending employees on good training courses is usually a win win)

                  – Tolure
                  2 days ago






                • 4





                  An industry sets expectations, and it's important for people to reset those expectations when they become unreasonable and/or inconsistent w/ other professions. I previously worked as an actuary--a job where you take professional exams over the course of many (10+) years, increasing knowledge, status, & position--and folks received about 1-2 weeks off (scheduled at their own preference), per exam (about 1 exam per year), for uninterrupted study--e.g. 2-4 hours per week, culminating in maybe 3-5 days off just before the exam. This seems to me a reasonable baseline also for software dev.

                  – michael
                  yesterday












                • 232





                  For me an easy rule of thumb is: If I want to learn something, it's on my time and dime. If the company needs me to learn something, it's on their time and dime.

                  – Stig Tore
                  2 days ago






                • 2





                  Also it's a good hint about the job itself. With myriad of things you can choose as your stack it should be understandable that YOUR thing is not the one company have chosen. So it's your thing or company thing that you would need to put your time into. And company should somehow reimburse you or pay for the help for forfeiting your own thing.

                  – SZCZERZO KŁY
                  2 days ago






                • 5





                  @StigTore Sadly the employer may think it's easier to just hire new staff which are versed in the new technology. Their ill-guided perspective could lead them to think "Well if a new employee already knows this stuff because they did it in their spare time then my current employees should be able to follow suit if they wish to keep their job." Even further sadly is that when a new employee is undoubtedly hired in the near future then the employer will wonder "Why the heck is this guy so much better than my guys? I paid for their training for crying out loud!"

                  – MonkeyZeus
                  2 days ago






                • 5





                  @MonkeyZeus The employer had a product before the switch. The knowledge that the dev's acquired over time working on the previous iterations is extremely valuable. They should have a better understanding of the direction the product is going and what unique challenges the industry their coding for brings. Old staff might not code as fast but I would never replace someone unless I felt that they were regressing or stagnating in their professional development. You stop learning and I'll stop considering you for better positions. (Sending employees on good training courses is usually a win win)

                  – Tolure
                  2 days ago






                • 4





                  An industry sets expectations, and it's important for people to reset those expectations when they become unreasonable and/or inconsistent w/ other professions. I previously worked as an actuary--a job where you take professional exams over the course of many (10+) years, increasing knowledge, status, & position--and folks received about 1-2 weeks off (scheduled at their own preference), per exam (about 1 exam per year), for uninterrupted study--e.g. 2-4 hours per week, culminating in maybe 3-5 days off just before the exam. This seems to me a reasonable baseline also for software dev.

                  – michael
                  yesterday







                232




                232





                For me an easy rule of thumb is: If I want to learn something, it's on my time and dime. If the company needs me to learn something, it's on their time and dime.

                – Stig Tore
                2 days ago





                For me an easy rule of thumb is: If I want to learn something, it's on my time and dime. If the company needs me to learn something, it's on their time and dime.

                – Stig Tore
                2 days ago




                2




                2





                Also it's a good hint about the job itself. With myriad of things you can choose as your stack it should be understandable that YOUR thing is not the one company have chosen. So it's your thing or company thing that you would need to put your time into. And company should somehow reimburse you or pay for the help for forfeiting your own thing.

                – SZCZERZO KŁY
                2 days ago





                Also it's a good hint about the job itself. With myriad of things you can choose as your stack it should be understandable that YOUR thing is not the one company have chosen. So it's your thing or company thing that you would need to put your time into. And company should somehow reimburse you or pay for the help for forfeiting your own thing.

                – SZCZERZO KŁY
                2 days ago




                5




                5





                @StigTore Sadly the employer may think it's easier to just hire new staff which are versed in the new technology. Their ill-guided perspective could lead them to think "Well if a new employee already knows this stuff because they did it in their spare time then my current employees should be able to follow suit if they wish to keep their job." Even further sadly is that when a new employee is undoubtedly hired in the near future then the employer will wonder "Why the heck is this guy so much better than my guys? I paid for their training for crying out loud!"

                – MonkeyZeus
                2 days ago





                @StigTore Sadly the employer may think it's easier to just hire new staff which are versed in the new technology. Their ill-guided perspective could lead them to think "Well if a new employee already knows this stuff because they did it in their spare time then my current employees should be able to follow suit if they wish to keep their job." Even further sadly is that when a new employee is undoubtedly hired in the near future then the employer will wonder "Why the heck is this guy so much better than my guys? I paid for their training for crying out loud!"

                – MonkeyZeus
                2 days ago




                5




                5





                @MonkeyZeus The employer had a product before the switch. The knowledge that the dev's acquired over time working on the previous iterations is extremely valuable. They should have a better understanding of the direction the product is going and what unique challenges the industry their coding for brings. Old staff might not code as fast but I would never replace someone unless I felt that they were regressing or stagnating in their professional development. You stop learning and I'll stop considering you for better positions. (Sending employees on good training courses is usually a win win)

                – Tolure
                2 days ago





                @MonkeyZeus The employer had a product before the switch. The knowledge that the dev's acquired over time working on the previous iterations is extremely valuable. They should have a better understanding of the direction the product is going and what unique challenges the industry their coding for brings. Old staff might not code as fast but I would never replace someone unless I felt that they were regressing or stagnating in their professional development. You stop learning and I'll stop considering you for better positions. (Sending employees on good training courses is usually a win win)

                – Tolure
                2 days ago




                4




                4





                An industry sets expectations, and it's important for people to reset those expectations when they become unreasonable and/or inconsistent w/ other professions. I previously worked as an actuary--a job where you take professional exams over the course of many (10+) years, increasing knowledge, status, & position--and folks received about 1-2 weeks off (scheduled at their own preference), per exam (about 1 exam per year), for uninterrupted study--e.g. 2-4 hours per week, culminating in maybe 3-5 days off just before the exam. This seems to me a reasonable baseline also for software dev.

                – michael
                yesterday





                An industry sets expectations, and it's important for people to reset those expectations when they become unreasonable and/or inconsistent w/ other professions. I previously worked as an actuary--a job where you take professional exams over the course of many (10+) years, increasing knowledge, status, & position--and folks received about 1-2 weeks off (scheduled at their own preference), per exam (about 1 exam per year), for uninterrupted study--e.g. 2-4 hours per week, culminating in maybe 3-5 days off just before the exam. This seems to me a reasonable baseline also for software dev.

                – michael
                yesterday













                107















                This new team member can be quoted as saying "It's not upon your
                employer to give you time to learn" and that we should all be doing
                this in our spare time at home.




                This new team member is confused.



                And unless this new team member is your boss, or is funding your paycheck, then this new team member can be safely ignored.



                If an employer wants you to learn something new, then your employer should be happy to pay for that learning on company time.



                Of course if the new technology interests you or hold long term promise for your career, you may wish to augment that with your own learning in your own time - that's just good career advice. And that's your personal choice to make.




                Is this normal?




                Sadly, there are some confused people we all get to work with.



                That doesn't make any of them right.






                share|improve this answer


















                • 4





                  Indeed, simply continue to work hard, and politely ignore these "rantings" from new employee.

                  – Fattie
                  2 days ago






                • 11





                  ^ this. Your boss asks you to do something. That means it's your job.

                  – xyious
                  2 days ago






                • 4





                  @Joe Strazzere, I like your answer, but would make 2 improvements (IMHO). First, "confused" is too forgiving. The new team member is mistaken. Second, while it's true that he could be safely ignored, I'd take that a step further and correct him, so he knows not to make similar attempts in the future.

                  – donjuedo
                  2 days ago






                • 7





                  @donjuedo - I was trying to be nice by using the term "confused".

                  – Joe Strazzere
                  yesterday






                • 4





                  Before ignoring the new team member make sure to check with your boss for clarification of roles if you're not certain that this team member isn't over you in some way. Sometimes roles are not communicated as explicitly as they should be, and sometimes a team member wedges themselves into a leadership role, and while this isn't "fair", it can wind up giving them authority. So it's only safe to ignore them if you're sure neither of these situations has occurred or is occurring. Otherwise you can find yourself labeled "not a team player". But definitely don't follow orders from a true peer.

                  – bob
                  yesterday
















                107















                This new team member can be quoted as saying "It's not upon your
                employer to give you time to learn" and that we should all be doing
                this in our spare time at home.




                This new team member is confused.



                And unless this new team member is your boss, or is funding your paycheck, then this new team member can be safely ignored.



                If an employer wants you to learn something new, then your employer should be happy to pay for that learning on company time.



                Of course if the new technology interests you or hold long term promise for your career, you may wish to augment that with your own learning in your own time - that's just good career advice. And that's your personal choice to make.




                Is this normal?




                Sadly, there are some confused people we all get to work with.



                That doesn't make any of them right.






                share|improve this answer


















                • 4





                  Indeed, simply continue to work hard, and politely ignore these "rantings" from new employee.

                  – Fattie
                  2 days ago






                • 11





                  ^ this. Your boss asks you to do something. That means it's your job.

                  – xyious
                  2 days ago






                • 4





                  @Joe Strazzere, I like your answer, but would make 2 improvements (IMHO). First, "confused" is too forgiving. The new team member is mistaken. Second, while it's true that he could be safely ignored, I'd take that a step further and correct him, so he knows not to make similar attempts in the future.

                  – donjuedo
                  2 days ago






                • 7





                  @donjuedo - I was trying to be nice by using the term "confused".

                  – Joe Strazzere
                  yesterday






                • 4





                  Before ignoring the new team member make sure to check with your boss for clarification of roles if you're not certain that this team member isn't over you in some way. Sometimes roles are not communicated as explicitly as they should be, and sometimes a team member wedges themselves into a leadership role, and while this isn't "fair", it can wind up giving them authority. So it's only safe to ignore them if you're sure neither of these situations has occurred or is occurring. Otherwise you can find yourself labeled "not a team player". But definitely don't follow orders from a true peer.

                  – bob
                  yesterday














                107












                107








                107








                This new team member can be quoted as saying "It's not upon your
                employer to give you time to learn" and that we should all be doing
                this in our spare time at home.




                This new team member is confused.



                And unless this new team member is your boss, or is funding your paycheck, then this new team member can be safely ignored.



                If an employer wants you to learn something new, then your employer should be happy to pay for that learning on company time.



                Of course if the new technology interests you or hold long term promise for your career, you may wish to augment that with your own learning in your own time - that's just good career advice. And that's your personal choice to make.




                Is this normal?




                Sadly, there are some confused people we all get to work with.



                That doesn't make any of them right.






                share|improve this answer














                This new team member can be quoted as saying "It's not upon your
                employer to give you time to learn" and that we should all be doing
                this in our spare time at home.




                This new team member is confused.



                And unless this new team member is your boss, or is funding your paycheck, then this new team member can be safely ignored.



                If an employer wants you to learn something new, then your employer should be happy to pay for that learning on company time.



                Of course if the new technology interests you or hold long term promise for your career, you may wish to augment that with your own learning in your own time - that's just good career advice. And that's your personal choice to make.




                Is this normal?




                Sadly, there are some confused people we all get to work with.



                That doesn't make any of them right.







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered 2 days ago









                Joe StrazzereJoe Strazzere

                253k1287321043




                253k1287321043







                • 4





                  Indeed, simply continue to work hard, and politely ignore these "rantings" from new employee.

                  – Fattie
                  2 days ago






                • 11





                  ^ this. Your boss asks you to do something. That means it's your job.

                  – xyious
                  2 days ago






                • 4





                  @Joe Strazzere, I like your answer, but would make 2 improvements (IMHO). First, "confused" is too forgiving. The new team member is mistaken. Second, while it's true that he could be safely ignored, I'd take that a step further and correct him, so he knows not to make similar attempts in the future.

                  – donjuedo
                  2 days ago






                • 7





                  @donjuedo - I was trying to be nice by using the term "confused".

                  – Joe Strazzere
                  yesterday






                • 4





                  Before ignoring the new team member make sure to check with your boss for clarification of roles if you're not certain that this team member isn't over you in some way. Sometimes roles are not communicated as explicitly as they should be, and sometimes a team member wedges themselves into a leadership role, and while this isn't "fair", it can wind up giving them authority. So it's only safe to ignore them if you're sure neither of these situations has occurred or is occurring. Otherwise you can find yourself labeled "not a team player". But definitely don't follow orders from a true peer.

                  – bob
                  yesterday













                • 4





                  Indeed, simply continue to work hard, and politely ignore these "rantings" from new employee.

                  – Fattie
                  2 days ago






                • 11





                  ^ this. Your boss asks you to do something. That means it's your job.

                  – xyious
                  2 days ago






                • 4





                  @Joe Strazzere, I like your answer, but would make 2 improvements (IMHO). First, "confused" is too forgiving. The new team member is mistaken. Second, while it's true that he could be safely ignored, I'd take that a step further and correct him, so he knows not to make similar attempts in the future.

                  – donjuedo
                  2 days ago






                • 7





                  @donjuedo - I was trying to be nice by using the term "confused".

                  – Joe Strazzere
                  yesterday






                • 4





                  Before ignoring the new team member make sure to check with your boss for clarification of roles if you're not certain that this team member isn't over you in some way. Sometimes roles are not communicated as explicitly as they should be, and sometimes a team member wedges themselves into a leadership role, and while this isn't "fair", it can wind up giving them authority. So it's only safe to ignore them if you're sure neither of these situations has occurred or is occurring. Otherwise you can find yourself labeled "not a team player". But definitely don't follow orders from a true peer.

                  – bob
                  yesterday








                4




                4





                Indeed, simply continue to work hard, and politely ignore these "rantings" from new employee.

                – Fattie
                2 days ago





                Indeed, simply continue to work hard, and politely ignore these "rantings" from new employee.

                – Fattie
                2 days ago




                11




                11





                ^ this. Your boss asks you to do something. That means it's your job.

                – xyious
                2 days ago





                ^ this. Your boss asks you to do something. That means it's your job.

                – xyious
                2 days ago




                4




                4





                @Joe Strazzere, I like your answer, but would make 2 improvements (IMHO). First, "confused" is too forgiving. The new team member is mistaken. Second, while it's true that he could be safely ignored, I'd take that a step further and correct him, so he knows not to make similar attempts in the future.

                – donjuedo
                2 days ago





                @Joe Strazzere, I like your answer, but would make 2 improvements (IMHO). First, "confused" is too forgiving. The new team member is mistaken. Second, while it's true that he could be safely ignored, I'd take that a step further and correct him, so he knows not to make similar attempts in the future.

                – donjuedo
                2 days ago




                7




                7





                @donjuedo - I was trying to be nice by using the term "confused".

                – Joe Strazzere
                yesterday





                @donjuedo - I was trying to be nice by using the term "confused".

                – Joe Strazzere
                yesterday




                4




                4





                Before ignoring the new team member make sure to check with your boss for clarification of roles if you're not certain that this team member isn't over you in some way. Sometimes roles are not communicated as explicitly as they should be, and sometimes a team member wedges themselves into a leadership role, and while this isn't "fair", it can wind up giving them authority. So it's only safe to ignore them if you're sure neither of these situations has occurred or is occurring. Otherwise you can find yourself labeled "not a team player". But definitely don't follow orders from a true peer.

                – bob
                yesterday






                Before ignoring the new team member make sure to check with your boss for clarification of roles if you're not certain that this team member isn't over you in some way. Sometimes roles are not communicated as explicitly as they should be, and sometimes a team member wedges themselves into a leadership role, and while this isn't "fair", it can wind up giving them authority. So it's only safe to ignore them if you're sure neither of these situations has occurred or is occurring. Otherwise you can find yourself labeled "not a team player". But definitely don't follow orders from a true peer.

                – bob
                yesterday












                44














                Good companies invest in their staff.



                Technology is a rapidly changing industry - there is always something new to learn. It is much cheaper to keep a current member of staff up to standard than to replace them with a new hire, which costs time and money in recruitment and getting up to speed. Good companies recognize this, and provide their staff with training in whatever technologies they use. It is therefore reasonable for you to hope that your employer will give you time and resources to learn new technologies during work hours.



                Not every employer realizes this, they see the obvious cost of providing training and do not recognize the hidden costs of failing to do that. Sadly this is common.



                However...



                Your employer won't care more about your career than you do - it's your career.



                When you first got a developer job, you (probably) didn't turn up on their doorstep saying, "I know nothing about development, pay me while I learn, then eventually I'll do some work for you!". You probably learned how to develop on your own time, maybe as part of full-time education, maybe getting some qualifications (which may have included a degree), before you got the job. You chose your career, and invested in it.



                Now, some time later, your current knowledge is not enough. You need to learn more. Although a good employer will help you with this... ultimately, it's you that needs to learn it. This may involve learning on your own time, putting your own energy and resources (time/money/etc.) into it. It is your career, after all. If you don't want to keep up to date with new technologies, your employer may decide to replace you with someone who will. Then, when you are looking for a new job, you may be competing with other candidates who have already learned those new technologies, while you will be left explaining that your former employer didn't give you training so you never did.



                Therefore, while both employer and employee should invest in ongoing professional development and learning, whether the employer does this or not, the employee must, or else they will find themselves lacking skills and knowledge that are needed in modern development.






                share|improve this answer




















                • 6





                  For me, this is the right response. It's an odd middle ground. Yes, we should learn. Yes, an employer should provide training. But assuming worst case, you have to take responsibility and keep up to date and stay sharp on your skills because your employer WILL replace you. That's the nature of the beast.

                  – ShinEmperor
                  2 days ago






                • 32





                  There's a big difference between failing to keep up with the state of the art and not feeling compelled to jump on the bandwagon of every "monster of the week" JS framework your project lead digs up. What if what the company picked isn't career advancing, would you still recommend to learn it in your free time?

                  – Ruther Rendommeleigh
                  2 days ago






                • 5





                  @BittermanAndy "What will help my career in this company?" is certainly a valid question to ask yourself, but, personally, I wouldn't feel compelled to bind myself too tightly to a company that demands unpaid overtime just so I may keep my job. I might decide to learn the skills that I consider more useful / in demand instead and look for a place that respects their developers more. Free time is a rather limited resource, after all.

                  – Ruther Rendommeleigh
                  2 days ago







                • 3





                  Agreed. Hence why I specifically mentioned that good employers will provide training. But not all employers are good employers, and not everyone can afford to leave a bad employer at the drop of a hat. Sometimes, "what's best for my job" is the right question. Other times, "what's best for my career" is the right question. It changes per person, and over time.

                  – BittermanAndy
                  2 days ago






                • 4





                  There is a huge difference in learning something to get hired and learning something to do your job. So you learn java, get a job as a java dev and then your company switches to erlang. Does that mean that you should now go out and learn erlang in your own time ? no. Why ? You're an employee, you need to learn erlang to do your job. That means it's work time. This is not a grey area. You learn for work, you're doing something your employer asked you to do. It's clearly work time.

                  – xyious
                  2 days ago















                44














                Good companies invest in their staff.



                Technology is a rapidly changing industry - there is always something new to learn. It is much cheaper to keep a current member of staff up to standard than to replace them with a new hire, which costs time and money in recruitment and getting up to speed. Good companies recognize this, and provide their staff with training in whatever technologies they use. It is therefore reasonable for you to hope that your employer will give you time and resources to learn new technologies during work hours.



                Not every employer realizes this, they see the obvious cost of providing training and do not recognize the hidden costs of failing to do that. Sadly this is common.



                However...



                Your employer won't care more about your career than you do - it's your career.



                When you first got a developer job, you (probably) didn't turn up on their doorstep saying, "I know nothing about development, pay me while I learn, then eventually I'll do some work for you!". You probably learned how to develop on your own time, maybe as part of full-time education, maybe getting some qualifications (which may have included a degree), before you got the job. You chose your career, and invested in it.



                Now, some time later, your current knowledge is not enough. You need to learn more. Although a good employer will help you with this... ultimately, it's you that needs to learn it. This may involve learning on your own time, putting your own energy and resources (time/money/etc.) into it. It is your career, after all. If you don't want to keep up to date with new technologies, your employer may decide to replace you with someone who will. Then, when you are looking for a new job, you may be competing with other candidates who have already learned those new technologies, while you will be left explaining that your former employer didn't give you training so you never did.



                Therefore, while both employer and employee should invest in ongoing professional development and learning, whether the employer does this or not, the employee must, or else they will find themselves lacking skills and knowledge that are needed in modern development.






                share|improve this answer




















                • 6





                  For me, this is the right response. It's an odd middle ground. Yes, we should learn. Yes, an employer should provide training. But assuming worst case, you have to take responsibility and keep up to date and stay sharp on your skills because your employer WILL replace you. That's the nature of the beast.

                  – ShinEmperor
                  2 days ago






                • 32





                  There's a big difference between failing to keep up with the state of the art and not feeling compelled to jump on the bandwagon of every "monster of the week" JS framework your project lead digs up. What if what the company picked isn't career advancing, would you still recommend to learn it in your free time?

                  – Ruther Rendommeleigh
                  2 days ago






                • 5





                  @BittermanAndy "What will help my career in this company?" is certainly a valid question to ask yourself, but, personally, I wouldn't feel compelled to bind myself too tightly to a company that demands unpaid overtime just so I may keep my job. I might decide to learn the skills that I consider more useful / in demand instead and look for a place that respects their developers more. Free time is a rather limited resource, after all.

                  – Ruther Rendommeleigh
                  2 days ago







                • 3





                  Agreed. Hence why I specifically mentioned that good employers will provide training. But not all employers are good employers, and not everyone can afford to leave a bad employer at the drop of a hat. Sometimes, "what's best for my job" is the right question. Other times, "what's best for my career" is the right question. It changes per person, and over time.

                  – BittermanAndy
                  2 days ago






                • 4





                  There is a huge difference in learning something to get hired and learning something to do your job. So you learn java, get a job as a java dev and then your company switches to erlang. Does that mean that you should now go out and learn erlang in your own time ? no. Why ? You're an employee, you need to learn erlang to do your job. That means it's work time. This is not a grey area. You learn for work, you're doing something your employer asked you to do. It's clearly work time.

                  – xyious
                  2 days ago













                44












                44








                44







                Good companies invest in their staff.



                Technology is a rapidly changing industry - there is always something new to learn. It is much cheaper to keep a current member of staff up to standard than to replace them with a new hire, which costs time and money in recruitment and getting up to speed. Good companies recognize this, and provide their staff with training in whatever technologies they use. It is therefore reasonable for you to hope that your employer will give you time and resources to learn new technologies during work hours.



                Not every employer realizes this, they see the obvious cost of providing training and do not recognize the hidden costs of failing to do that. Sadly this is common.



                However...



                Your employer won't care more about your career than you do - it's your career.



                When you first got a developer job, you (probably) didn't turn up on their doorstep saying, "I know nothing about development, pay me while I learn, then eventually I'll do some work for you!". You probably learned how to develop on your own time, maybe as part of full-time education, maybe getting some qualifications (which may have included a degree), before you got the job. You chose your career, and invested in it.



                Now, some time later, your current knowledge is not enough. You need to learn more. Although a good employer will help you with this... ultimately, it's you that needs to learn it. This may involve learning on your own time, putting your own energy and resources (time/money/etc.) into it. It is your career, after all. If you don't want to keep up to date with new technologies, your employer may decide to replace you with someone who will. Then, when you are looking for a new job, you may be competing with other candidates who have already learned those new technologies, while you will be left explaining that your former employer didn't give you training so you never did.



                Therefore, while both employer and employee should invest in ongoing professional development and learning, whether the employer does this or not, the employee must, or else they will find themselves lacking skills and knowledge that are needed in modern development.






                share|improve this answer















                Good companies invest in their staff.



                Technology is a rapidly changing industry - there is always something new to learn. It is much cheaper to keep a current member of staff up to standard than to replace them with a new hire, which costs time and money in recruitment and getting up to speed. Good companies recognize this, and provide their staff with training in whatever technologies they use. It is therefore reasonable for you to hope that your employer will give you time and resources to learn new technologies during work hours.



                Not every employer realizes this, they see the obvious cost of providing training and do not recognize the hidden costs of failing to do that. Sadly this is common.



                However...



                Your employer won't care more about your career than you do - it's your career.



                When you first got a developer job, you (probably) didn't turn up on their doorstep saying, "I know nothing about development, pay me while I learn, then eventually I'll do some work for you!". You probably learned how to develop on your own time, maybe as part of full-time education, maybe getting some qualifications (which may have included a degree), before you got the job. You chose your career, and invested in it.



                Now, some time later, your current knowledge is not enough. You need to learn more. Although a good employer will help you with this... ultimately, it's you that needs to learn it. This may involve learning on your own time, putting your own energy and resources (time/money/etc.) into it. It is your career, after all. If you don't want to keep up to date with new technologies, your employer may decide to replace you with someone who will. Then, when you are looking for a new job, you may be competing with other candidates who have already learned those new technologies, while you will be left explaining that your former employer didn't give you training so you never did.



                Therefore, while both employer and employee should invest in ongoing professional development and learning, whether the employer does this or not, the employee must, or else they will find themselves lacking skills and knowledge that are needed in modern development.







                share|improve this answer














                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer








                edited 2 days ago

























                answered 2 days ago









                BittermanAndyBittermanAndy

                3,201617




                3,201617







                • 6





                  For me, this is the right response. It's an odd middle ground. Yes, we should learn. Yes, an employer should provide training. But assuming worst case, you have to take responsibility and keep up to date and stay sharp on your skills because your employer WILL replace you. That's the nature of the beast.

                  – ShinEmperor
                  2 days ago






                • 32





                  There's a big difference between failing to keep up with the state of the art and not feeling compelled to jump on the bandwagon of every "monster of the week" JS framework your project lead digs up. What if what the company picked isn't career advancing, would you still recommend to learn it in your free time?

                  – Ruther Rendommeleigh
                  2 days ago






                • 5





                  @BittermanAndy "What will help my career in this company?" is certainly a valid question to ask yourself, but, personally, I wouldn't feel compelled to bind myself too tightly to a company that demands unpaid overtime just so I may keep my job. I might decide to learn the skills that I consider more useful / in demand instead and look for a place that respects their developers more. Free time is a rather limited resource, after all.

                  – Ruther Rendommeleigh
                  2 days ago







                • 3





                  Agreed. Hence why I specifically mentioned that good employers will provide training. But not all employers are good employers, and not everyone can afford to leave a bad employer at the drop of a hat. Sometimes, "what's best for my job" is the right question. Other times, "what's best for my career" is the right question. It changes per person, and over time.

                  – BittermanAndy
                  2 days ago






                • 4





                  There is a huge difference in learning something to get hired and learning something to do your job. So you learn java, get a job as a java dev and then your company switches to erlang. Does that mean that you should now go out and learn erlang in your own time ? no. Why ? You're an employee, you need to learn erlang to do your job. That means it's work time. This is not a grey area. You learn for work, you're doing something your employer asked you to do. It's clearly work time.

                  – xyious
                  2 days ago












                • 6





                  For me, this is the right response. It's an odd middle ground. Yes, we should learn. Yes, an employer should provide training. But assuming worst case, you have to take responsibility and keep up to date and stay sharp on your skills because your employer WILL replace you. That's the nature of the beast.

                  – ShinEmperor
                  2 days ago






                • 32





                  There's a big difference between failing to keep up with the state of the art and not feeling compelled to jump on the bandwagon of every "monster of the week" JS framework your project lead digs up. What if what the company picked isn't career advancing, would you still recommend to learn it in your free time?

                  – Ruther Rendommeleigh
                  2 days ago






                • 5





                  @BittermanAndy "What will help my career in this company?" is certainly a valid question to ask yourself, but, personally, I wouldn't feel compelled to bind myself too tightly to a company that demands unpaid overtime just so I may keep my job. I might decide to learn the skills that I consider more useful / in demand instead and look for a place that respects their developers more. Free time is a rather limited resource, after all.

                  – Ruther Rendommeleigh
                  2 days ago







                • 3





                  Agreed. Hence why I specifically mentioned that good employers will provide training. But not all employers are good employers, and not everyone can afford to leave a bad employer at the drop of a hat. Sometimes, "what's best for my job" is the right question. Other times, "what's best for my career" is the right question. It changes per person, and over time.

                  – BittermanAndy
                  2 days ago






                • 4





                  There is a huge difference in learning something to get hired and learning something to do your job. So you learn java, get a job as a java dev and then your company switches to erlang. Does that mean that you should now go out and learn erlang in your own time ? no. Why ? You're an employee, you need to learn erlang to do your job. That means it's work time. This is not a grey area. You learn for work, you're doing something your employer asked you to do. It's clearly work time.

                  – xyious
                  2 days ago







                6




                6





                For me, this is the right response. It's an odd middle ground. Yes, we should learn. Yes, an employer should provide training. But assuming worst case, you have to take responsibility and keep up to date and stay sharp on your skills because your employer WILL replace you. That's the nature of the beast.

                – ShinEmperor
                2 days ago





                For me, this is the right response. It's an odd middle ground. Yes, we should learn. Yes, an employer should provide training. But assuming worst case, you have to take responsibility and keep up to date and stay sharp on your skills because your employer WILL replace you. That's the nature of the beast.

                – ShinEmperor
                2 days ago




                32




                32





                There's a big difference between failing to keep up with the state of the art and not feeling compelled to jump on the bandwagon of every "monster of the week" JS framework your project lead digs up. What if what the company picked isn't career advancing, would you still recommend to learn it in your free time?

                – Ruther Rendommeleigh
                2 days ago





                There's a big difference between failing to keep up with the state of the art and not feeling compelled to jump on the bandwagon of every "monster of the week" JS framework your project lead digs up. What if what the company picked isn't career advancing, would you still recommend to learn it in your free time?

                – Ruther Rendommeleigh
                2 days ago




                5




                5





                @BittermanAndy "What will help my career in this company?" is certainly a valid question to ask yourself, but, personally, I wouldn't feel compelled to bind myself too tightly to a company that demands unpaid overtime just so I may keep my job. I might decide to learn the skills that I consider more useful / in demand instead and look for a place that respects their developers more. Free time is a rather limited resource, after all.

                – Ruther Rendommeleigh
                2 days ago






                @BittermanAndy "What will help my career in this company?" is certainly a valid question to ask yourself, but, personally, I wouldn't feel compelled to bind myself too tightly to a company that demands unpaid overtime just so I may keep my job. I might decide to learn the skills that I consider more useful / in demand instead and look for a place that respects their developers more. Free time is a rather limited resource, after all.

                – Ruther Rendommeleigh
                2 days ago





                3




                3





                Agreed. Hence why I specifically mentioned that good employers will provide training. But not all employers are good employers, and not everyone can afford to leave a bad employer at the drop of a hat. Sometimes, "what's best for my job" is the right question. Other times, "what's best for my career" is the right question. It changes per person, and over time.

                – BittermanAndy
                2 days ago





                Agreed. Hence why I specifically mentioned that good employers will provide training. But not all employers are good employers, and not everyone can afford to leave a bad employer at the drop of a hat. Sometimes, "what's best for my job" is the right question. Other times, "what's best for my career" is the right question. It changes per person, and over time.

                – BittermanAndy
                2 days ago




                4




                4





                There is a huge difference in learning something to get hired and learning something to do your job. So you learn java, get a job as a java dev and then your company switches to erlang. Does that mean that you should now go out and learn erlang in your own time ? no. Why ? You're an employee, you need to learn erlang to do your job. That means it's work time. This is not a grey area. You learn for work, you're doing something your employer asked you to do. It's clearly work time.

                – xyious
                2 days ago





                There is a huge difference in learning something to get hired and learning something to do your job. So you learn java, get a job as a java dev and then your company switches to erlang. Does that mean that you should now go out and learn erlang in your own time ? no. Why ? You're an employee, you need to learn erlang to do your job. That means it's work time. This is not a grey area. You learn for work, you're doing something your employer asked you to do. It's clearly work time.

                – xyious
                2 days ago











                14














                As a rule of thumb, what you do in your free time is none of your employer's business. Their right to assign tasks is limited to work hours. They hired you for a specific position, presumably after interviewing you for that position, and the skill set that you had at that time. They have since then changed their mind and decided they want a different skill set. Whether that means hiring someone else or training existing employees, it is a strategic decision the business made and any expenses related to that are theirs to cover.



                Now, learning new technologies is part of the job, and your employer would have reason to complain if you refused to learn the new tech stack at all. Considering the resources available today, one could also argue that it is reasonable to expect an experienced software developer to familiarize themself with a new language or framework without the employer providing extensive training. However, the key difference between training that you do of your own accord and training mandated by your employer is who gets to decide if, what, when and how much you learn. If they pay for it, they get to choose. If not, it's your time to do with as you will.



                Personally, if I consider the tech in question worthwhile and the company is otherwise decent, I don't mind "throwing them a bone" and picking that language or framework for my next hobby project, but to demand this kind of unpaid overtime raises all sorts of red flags.



                In my experience, the generally accepted practice is to factor learning time into the estimates of any project that requires employees to learn a new technology. Adding a team member with the desired skill set is a good way to speed up that process, but it will still delay the project. Whether or not that's worth it is up to the business to decide.






                share|improve this answer





























                  14














                  As a rule of thumb, what you do in your free time is none of your employer's business. Their right to assign tasks is limited to work hours. They hired you for a specific position, presumably after interviewing you for that position, and the skill set that you had at that time. They have since then changed their mind and decided they want a different skill set. Whether that means hiring someone else or training existing employees, it is a strategic decision the business made and any expenses related to that are theirs to cover.



                  Now, learning new technologies is part of the job, and your employer would have reason to complain if you refused to learn the new tech stack at all. Considering the resources available today, one could also argue that it is reasonable to expect an experienced software developer to familiarize themself with a new language or framework without the employer providing extensive training. However, the key difference between training that you do of your own accord and training mandated by your employer is who gets to decide if, what, when and how much you learn. If they pay for it, they get to choose. If not, it's your time to do with as you will.



                  Personally, if I consider the tech in question worthwhile and the company is otherwise decent, I don't mind "throwing them a bone" and picking that language or framework for my next hobby project, but to demand this kind of unpaid overtime raises all sorts of red flags.



                  In my experience, the generally accepted practice is to factor learning time into the estimates of any project that requires employees to learn a new technology. Adding a team member with the desired skill set is a good way to speed up that process, but it will still delay the project. Whether or not that's worth it is up to the business to decide.






                  share|improve this answer



























                    14












                    14








                    14







                    As a rule of thumb, what you do in your free time is none of your employer's business. Their right to assign tasks is limited to work hours. They hired you for a specific position, presumably after interviewing you for that position, and the skill set that you had at that time. They have since then changed their mind and decided they want a different skill set. Whether that means hiring someone else or training existing employees, it is a strategic decision the business made and any expenses related to that are theirs to cover.



                    Now, learning new technologies is part of the job, and your employer would have reason to complain if you refused to learn the new tech stack at all. Considering the resources available today, one could also argue that it is reasonable to expect an experienced software developer to familiarize themself with a new language or framework without the employer providing extensive training. However, the key difference between training that you do of your own accord and training mandated by your employer is who gets to decide if, what, when and how much you learn. If they pay for it, they get to choose. If not, it's your time to do with as you will.



                    Personally, if I consider the tech in question worthwhile and the company is otherwise decent, I don't mind "throwing them a bone" and picking that language or framework for my next hobby project, but to demand this kind of unpaid overtime raises all sorts of red flags.



                    In my experience, the generally accepted practice is to factor learning time into the estimates of any project that requires employees to learn a new technology. Adding a team member with the desired skill set is a good way to speed up that process, but it will still delay the project. Whether or not that's worth it is up to the business to decide.






                    share|improve this answer















                    As a rule of thumb, what you do in your free time is none of your employer's business. Their right to assign tasks is limited to work hours. They hired you for a specific position, presumably after interviewing you for that position, and the skill set that you had at that time. They have since then changed their mind and decided they want a different skill set. Whether that means hiring someone else or training existing employees, it is a strategic decision the business made and any expenses related to that are theirs to cover.



                    Now, learning new technologies is part of the job, and your employer would have reason to complain if you refused to learn the new tech stack at all. Considering the resources available today, one could also argue that it is reasonable to expect an experienced software developer to familiarize themself with a new language or framework without the employer providing extensive training. However, the key difference between training that you do of your own accord and training mandated by your employer is who gets to decide if, what, when and how much you learn. If they pay for it, they get to choose. If not, it's your time to do with as you will.



                    Personally, if I consider the tech in question worthwhile and the company is otherwise decent, I don't mind "throwing them a bone" and picking that language or framework for my next hobby project, but to demand this kind of unpaid overtime raises all sorts of red flags.



                    In my experience, the generally accepted practice is to factor learning time into the estimates of any project that requires employees to learn a new technology. Adding a team member with the desired skill set is a good way to speed up that process, but it will still delay the project. Whether or not that's worth it is up to the business to decide.







                    share|improve this answer














                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer








                    edited 2 days ago

























                    answered 2 days ago









                    Ruther RendommeleighRuther Rendommeleigh

                    980310




                    980310





















                        6














                        Broadly speaking, I feel like the responses to these sorts of questions don't consider the reality of the market.



                        In short, being a developer is all about knowledge and experience and often knowing more means you can experience more which then reinforces what you know. It makes you extraordinarily valuable if you can do this.



                        That said, consider your options. Ok, fine your employer won't train you. Are you ready to bust your quotes? Are you ready to be slower than other team members who went ahead and DID do the learning on their own time.



                        My issue with the responses here is they're not pragmatic. If I were told "Learn this tech in your spare time." and I overheard another dev saying "I'm not going to do that. It's MY time.", I'm learning that tech in my free time. Because I'm ambitious and I know I'll perform more effectively if I do so.



                        This is the REALITY of things. If you don't, someone else will. I'm not saying it's right or fair, I'm saying that's how this goes. But my perspective is: To be a developer, you must ALWAYS be learning. ALWAYS. It never stops, not even a little. Put in the time and you'll get a comfortable job and good money.



                        In a perfect world, we would be trained and taken care of and all would be well.But the world is an imperfect place. But more basically, the way I see it is: I'm a dev, I should be learning in my free time anyways because my career depends on it.






                        share|improve this answer


















                        • 2





                          Would you say that this line of reasoning still applies if e.g. you consider the new tech stack the company picked to be a dead end? There are more options than just "learn what the company picked" and "learn nothing at all".

                          – Ruther Rendommeleigh
                          2 days ago






                        • 2





                          A particular tech might be a career dead end, but not learning it might be a dead end in the current job. It then becomes a strategic question of whether the employee's job or career is more important to them, at that time of their life. (For most people the answer to that question varies over time).

                          – BittermanAndy
                          2 days ago






                        • 5





                          This answer lambastes the other answers as not being "practical", but I think this answer is one of the least practical here - it's far too absolute, and makes absolutely no distinction between "Technology we need and that will be useful to your career" and "Programming Smalltalk-80 to interface with MinoIta printers over Token Ring." Seriously. If your boss said, "Hey, I need you to spend your weekends learning Pascal so that you can maintain the fax software" your response should not be "I'm learning that tech on my own time because I'm ambitious."

                          – Kevin
                          2 days ago






                        • 4





                          There's a big difference between "I have decided to swat up on some new technologies on a Sunday night for the benefit of my career", and "I am swatting up on some new technologies on a Sunday night because a new colleague ordered me to". You may end up swatting up on new technologies on a Sunday night, but at least do it for the right reasons... and don't let the colleague continue to believe that his suggested reason is valid, because it's not.

                          – Lightness Races in Orbit
                          yesterday







                        • 2





                          I think, your comment doesn't consider reality of life. One simply has other stuff to do than work and learn for work. If the employer doesn't pay the learning, than it will have to go on the fly. Good devs learn new technologies while doing them, only tasks will be done slower.

                          – kap
                          yesterday















                        6














                        Broadly speaking, I feel like the responses to these sorts of questions don't consider the reality of the market.



                        In short, being a developer is all about knowledge and experience and often knowing more means you can experience more which then reinforces what you know. It makes you extraordinarily valuable if you can do this.



                        That said, consider your options. Ok, fine your employer won't train you. Are you ready to bust your quotes? Are you ready to be slower than other team members who went ahead and DID do the learning on their own time.



                        My issue with the responses here is they're not pragmatic. If I were told "Learn this tech in your spare time." and I overheard another dev saying "I'm not going to do that. It's MY time.", I'm learning that tech in my free time. Because I'm ambitious and I know I'll perform more effectively if I do so.



                        This is the REALITY of things. If you don't, someone else will. I'm not saying it's right or fair, I'm saying that's how this goes. But my perspective is: To be a developer, you must ALWAYS be learning. ALWAYS. It never stops, not even a little. Put in the time and you'll get a comfortable job and good money.



                        In a perfect world, we would be trained and taken care of and all would be well.But the world is an imperfect place. But more basically, the way I see it is: I'm a dev, I should be learning in my free time anyways because my career depends on it.






                        share|improve this answer


















                        • 2





                          Would you say that this line of reasoning still applies if e.g. you consider the new tech stack the company picked to be a dead end? There are more options than just "learn what the company picked" and "learn nothing at all".

                          – Ruther Rendommeleigh
                          2 days ago






                        • 2





                          A particular tech might be a career dead end, but not learning it might be a dead end in the current job. It then becomes a strategic question of whether the employee's job or career is more important to them, at that time of their life. (For most people the answer to that question varies over time).

                          – BittermanAndy
                          2 days ago






                        • 5





                          This answer lambastes the other answers as not being "practical", but I think this answer is one of the least practical here - it's far too absolute, and makes absolutely no distinction between "Technology we need and that will be useful to your career" and "Programming Smalltalk-80 to interface with MinoIta printers over Token Ring." Seriously. If your boss said, "Hey, I need you to spend your weekends learning Pascal so that you can maintain the fax software" your response should not be "I'm learning that tech on my own time because I'm ambitious."

                          – Kevin
                          2 days ago






                        • 4





                          There's a big difference between "I have decided to swat up on some new technologies on a Sunday night for the benefit of my career", and "I am swatting up on some new technologies on a Sunday night because a new colleague ordered me to". You may end up swatting up on new technologies on a Sunday night, but at least do it for the right reasons... and don't let the colleague continue to believe that his suggested reason is valid, because it's not.

                          – Lightness Races in Orbit
                          yesterday







                        • 2





                          I think, your comment doesn't consider reality of life. One simply has other stuff to do than work and learn for work. If the employer doesn't pay the learning, than it will have to go on the fly. Good devs learn new technologies while doing them, only tasks will be done slower.

                          – kap
                          yesterday













                        6












                        6








                        6







                        Broadly speaking, I feel like the responses to these sorts of questions don't consider the reality of the market.



                        In short, being a developer is all about knowledge and experience and often knowing more means you can experience more which then reinforces what you know. It makes you extraordinarily valuable if you can do this.



                        That said, consider your options. Ok, fine your employer won't train you. Are you ready to bust your quotes? Are you ready to be slower than other team members who went ahead and DID do the learning on their own time.



                        My issue with the responses here is they're not pragmatic. If I were told "Learn this tech in your spare time." and I overheard another dev saying "I'm not going to do that. It's MY time.", I'm learning that tech in my free time. Because I'm ambitious and I know I'll perform more effectively if I do so.



                        This is the REALITY of things. If you don't, someone else will. I'm not saying it's right or fair, I'm saying that's how this goes. But my perspective is: To be a developer, you must ALWAYS be learning. ALWAYS. It never stops, not even a little. Put in the time and you'll get a comfortable job and good money.



                        In a perfect world, we would be trained and taken care of and all would be well.But the world is an imperfect place. But more basically, the way I see it is: I'm a dev, I should be learning in my free time anyways because my career depends on it.






                        share|improve this answer













                        Broadly speaking, I feel like the responses to these sorts of questions don't consider the reality of the market.



                        In short, being a developer is all about knowledge and experience and often knowing more means you can experience more which then reinforces what you know. It makes you extraordinarily valuable if you can do this.



                        That said, consider your options. Ok, fine your employer won't train you. Are you ready to bust your quotes? Are you ready to be slower than other team members who went ahead and DID do the learning on their own time.



                        My issue with the responses here is they're not pragmatic. If I were told "Learn this tech in your spare time." and I overheard another dev saying "I'm not going to do that. It's MY time.", I'm learning that tech in my free time. Because I'm ambitious and I know I'll perform more effectively if I do so.



                        This is the REALITY of things. If you don't, someone else will. I'm not saying it's right or fair, I'm saying that's how this goes. But my perspective is: To be a developer, you must ALWAYS be learning. ALWAYS. It never stops, not even a little. Put in the time and you'll get a comfortable job and good money.



                        In a perfect world, we would be trained and taken care of and all would be well.But the world is an imperfect place. But more basically, the way I see it is: I'm a dev, I should be learning in my free time anyways because my career depends on it.







                        share|improve this answer












                        share|improve this answer



                        share|improve this answer










                        answered 2 days ago









                        ShinEmperorShinEmperor

                        3,016518




                        3,016518







                        • 2





                          Would you say that this line of reasoning still applies if e.g. you consider the new tech stack the company picked to be a dead end? There are more options than just "learn what the company picked" and "learn nothing at all".

                          – Ruther Rendommeleigh
                          2 days ago






                        • 2





                          A particular tech might be a career dead end, but not learning it might be a dead end in the current job. It then becomes a strategic question of whether the employee's job or career is more important to them, at that time of their life. (For most people the answer to that question varies over time).

                          – BittermanAndy
                          2 days ago






                        • 5





                          This answer lambastes the other answers as not being "practical", but I think this answer is one of the least practical here - it's far too absolute, and makes absolutely no distinction between "Technology we need and that will be useful to your career" and "Programming Smalltalk-80 to interface with MinoIta printers over Token Ring." Seriously. If your boss said, "Hey, I need you to spend your weekends learning Pascal so that you can maintain the fax software" your response should not be "I'm learning that tech on my own time because I'm ambitious."

                          – Kevin
                          2 days ago






                        • 4





                          There's a big difference between "I have decided to swat up on some new technologies on a Sunday night for the benefit of my career", and "I am swatting up on some new technologies on a Sunday night because a new colleague ordered me to". You may end up swatting up on new technologies on a Sunday night, but at least do it for the right reasons... and don't let the colleague continue to believe that his suggested reason is valid, because it's not.

                          – Lightness Races in Orbit
                          yesterday







                        • 2





                          I think, your comment doesn't consider reality of life. One simply has other stuff to do than work and learn for work. If the employer doesn't pay the learning, than it will have to go on the fly. Good devs learn new technologies while doing them, only tasks will be done slower.

                          – kap
                          yesterday












                        • 2





                          Would you say that this line of reasoning still applies if e.g. you consider the new tech stack the company picked to be a dead end? There are more options than just "learn what the company picked" and "learn nothing at all".

                          – Ruther Rendommeleigh
                          2 days ago






                        • 2





                          A particular tech might be a career dead end, but not learning it might be a dead end in the current job. It then becomes a strategic question of whether the employee's job or career is more important to them, at that time of their life. (For most people the answer to that question varies over time).

                          – BittermanAndy
                          2 days ago






                        • 5





                          This answer lambastes the other answers as not being "practical", but I think this answer is one of the least practical here - it's far too absolute, and makes absolutely no distinction between "Technology we need and that will be useful to your career" and "Programming Smalltalk-80 to interface with MinoIta printers over Token Ring." Seriously. If your boss said, "Hey, I need you to spend your weekends learning Pascal so that you can maintain the fax software" your response should not be "I'm learning that tech on my own time because I'm ambitious."

                          – Kevin
                          2 days ago






                        • 4





                          There's a big difference between "I have decided to swat up on some new technologies on a Sunday night for the benefit of my career", and "I am swatting up on some new technologies on a Sunday night because a new colleague ordered me to". You may end up swatting up on new technologies on a Sunday night, but at least do it for the right reasons... and don't let the colleague continue to believe that his suggested reason is valid, because it's not.

                          – Lightness Races in Orbit
                          yesterday







                        • 2





                          I think, your comment doesn't consider reality of life. One simply has other stuff to do than work and learn for work. If the employer doesn't pay the learning, than it will have to go on the fly. Good devs learn new technologies while doing them, only tasks will be done slower.

                          – kap
                          yesterday







                        2




                        2





                        Would you say that this line of reasoning still applies if e.g. you consider the new tech stack the company picked to be a dead end? There are more options than just "learn what the company picked" and "learn nothing at all".

                        – Ruther Rendommeleigh
                        2 days ago





                        Would you say that this line of reasoning still applies if e.g. you consider the new tech stack the company picked to be a dead end? There are more options than just "learn what the company picked" and "learn nothing at all".

                        – Ruther Rendommeleigh
                        2 days ago




                        2




                        2





                        A particular tech might be a career dead end, but not learning it might be a dead end in the current job. It then becomes a strategic question of whether the employee's job or career is more important to them, at that time of their life. (For most people the answer to that question varies over time).

                        – BittermanAndy
                        2 days ago





                        A particular tech might be a career dead end, but not learning it might be a dead end in the current job. It then becomes a strategic question of whether the employee's job or career is more important to them, at that time of their life. (For most people the answer to that question varies over time).

                        – BittermanAndy
                        2 days ago




                        5




                        5





                        This answer lambastes the other answers as not being "practical", but I think this answer is one of the least practical here - it's far too absolute, and makes absolutely no distinction between "Technology we need and that will be useful to your career" and "Programming Smalltalk-80 to interface with MinoIta printers over Token Ring." Seriously. If your boss said, "Hey, I need you to spend your weekends learning Pascal so that you can maintain the fax software" your response should not be "I'm learning that tech on my own time because I'm ambitious."

                        – Kevin
                        2 days ago





                        This answer lambastes the other answers as not being "practical", but I think this answer is one of the least practical here - it's far too absolute, and makes absolutely no distinction between "Technology we need and that will be useful to your career" and "Programming Smalltalk-80 to interface with MinoIta printers over Token Ring." Seriously. If your boss said, "Hey, I need you to spend your weekends learning Pascal so that you can maintain the fax software" your response should not be "I'm learning that tech on my own time because I'm ambitious."

                        – Kevin
                        2 days ago




                        4




                        4





                        There's a big difference between "I have decided to swat up on some new technologies on a Sunday night for the benefit of my career", and "I am swatting up on some new technologies on a Sunday night because a new colleague ordered me to". You may end up swatting up on new technologies on a Sunday night, but at least do it for the right reasons... and don't let the colleague continue to believe that his suggested reason is valid, because it's not.

                        – Lightness Races in Orbit
                        yesterday






                        There's a big difference between "I have decided to swat up on some new technologies on a Sunday night for the benefit of my career", and "I am swatting up on some new technologies on a Sunday night because a new colleague ordered me to". You may end up swatting up on new technologies on a Sunday night, but at least do it for the right reasons... and don't let the colleague continue to believe that his suggested reason is valid, because it's not.

                        – Lightness Races in Orbit
                        yesterday





                        2




                        2





                        I think, your comment doesn't consider reality of life. One simply has other stuff to do than work and learn for work. If the employer doesn't pay the learning, than it will have to go on the fly. Good devs learn new technologies while doing them, only tasks will be done slower.

                        – kap
                        yesterday





                        I think, your comment doesn't consider reality of life. One simply has other stuff to do than work and learn for work. If the employer doesn't pay the learning, than it will have to go on the fly. Good devs learn new technologies while doing them, only tasks will be done slower.

                        – kap
                        yesterday











                        3














                        The new guy is almost right, the following statement is true in general:




                        "It's not upon your employer to give you time to learn"

                        and we should all be [learning] in our spare time at home.




                        Although this is correct from a certain perspective, it is not correct in your circumstance.



                        In general:



                        1. It is actually on you to be familiar with new things.

                          This is a part of having a long career in IT. I don't mean that you should know all the new stuff, just that a web developer should be aware of anything big that comes out of Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Twitter, etc.

                        By "aware" I mean that you should know approximately what it is and what the supposed advantages are (why people are choosing it).

                        I do not mean that you should learn each thing that comes out (that's not even possible).



                        In your case:



                        1. You are competent with your current work, and your employer wants to pivot in a new direction.

                          In this case it is appropriate for you to expect work time to be used learning the "new thing".


                        I just feel that the onus is on the employer to give some time to learn and adapt




                        You are correct.

                        However, I would recommend that in the near term (until you are competent in the new tech) that you take some time from your spouse and daughter and invest it "in your career" so you will be ahead of the other people learning this, instead of the laggard.



                        This answer assumes that the "new thing" is (in your opinion) worth learning.

                        If that isn't true then the "home time away from your family" might be better spent looking for a new job (or learning something that your next job might need).






                        share|improve this answer























                        • Why people are doing it, cause a google search result told everyone the same thing. No wonder google apis are so in vogue today...

                          – marshal craft
                          yesterday






                        • 3





                          Also you are recommending to take time from family, to invest in a job, technology, which can come and go at the slightest whim. That is not responsible advice, or even necessary.

                          – marshal craft
                          yesterday











                        • Hmmm maybe wording comes off a bit weird, not terrible answer, +1

                          – marshal craft
                          yesterday











                        • @marshalcraft Yes, I am suggesting some time from family (etc.) be taken for study at home. Enough to ensure that OP is at least in the middle of the line learning the new stuff (maybe no time at home, maybe hours). I say this because OP has a family and presumably wants a career so he can provide for them... and the truth is that (figuratively speaking) sometimes at work the tail gets cut off.

                          – J. Chris Compton
                          yesterday















                        3














                        The new guy is almost right, the following statement is true in general:




                        "It's not upon your employer to give you time to learn"

                        and we should all be [learning] in our spare time at home.




                        Although this is correct from a certain perspective, it is not correct in your circumstance.



                        In general:



                        1. It is actually on you to be familiar with new things.

                          This is a part of having a long career in IT. I don't mean that you should know all the new stuff, just that a web developer should be aware of anything big that comes out of Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Twitter, etc.

                        By "aware" I mean that you should know approximately what it is and what the supposed advantages are (why people are choosing it).

                        I do not mean that you should learn each thing that comes out (that's not even possible).



                        In your case:



                        1. You are competent with your current work, and your employer wants to pivot in a new direction.

                          In this case it is appropriate for you to expect work time to be used learning the "new thing".


                        I just feel that the onus is on the employer to give some time to learn and adapt




                        You are correct.

                        However, I would recommend that in the near term (until you are competent in the new tech) that you take some time from your spouse and daughter and invest it "in your career" so you will be ahead of the other people learning this, instead of the laggard.



                        This answer assumes that the "new thing" is (in your opinion) worth learning.

                        If that isn't true then the "home time away from your family" might be better spent looking for a new job (or learning something that your next job might need).






                        share|improve this answer























                        • Why people are doing it, cause a google search result told everyone the same thing. No wonder google apis are so in vogue today...

                          – marshal craft
                          yesterday






                        • 3





                          Also you are recommending to take time from family, to invest in a job, technology, which can come and go at the slightest whim. That is not responsible advice, or even necessary.

                          – marshal craft
                          yesterday











                        • Hmmm maybe wording comes off a bit weird, not terrible answer, +1

                          – marshal craft
                          yesterday











                        • @marshalcraft Yes, I am suggesting some time from family (etc.) be taken for study at home. Enough to ensure that OP is at least in the middle of the line learning the new stuff (maybe no time at home, maybe hours). I say this because OP has a family and presumably wants a career so he can provide for them... and the truth is that (figuratively speaking) sometimes at work the tail gets cut off.

                          – J. Chris Compton
                          yesterday













                        3












                        3








                        3







                        The new guy is almost right, the following statement is true in general:




                        "It's not upon your employer to give you time to learn"

                        and we should all be [learning] in our spare time at home.




                        Although this is correct from a certain perspective, it is not correct in your circumstance.



                        In general:



                        1. It is actually on you to be familiar with new things.

                          This is a part of having a long career in IT. I don't mean that you should know all the new stuff, just that a web developer should be aware of anything big that comes out of Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Twitter, etc.

                        By "aware" I mean that you should know approximately what it is and what the supposed advantages are (why people are choosing it).

                        I do not mean that you should learn each thing that comes out (that's not even possible).



                        In your case:



                        1. You are competent with your current work, and your employer wants to pivot in a new direction.

                          In this case it is appropriate for you to expect work time to be used learning the "new thing".


                        I just feel that the onus is on the employer to give some time to learn and adapt




                        You are correct.

                        However, I would recommend that in the near term (until you are competent in the new tech) that you take some time from your spouse and daughter and invest it "in your career" so you will be ahead of the other people learning this, instead of the laggard.



                        This answer assumes that the "new thing" is (in your opinion) worth learning.

                        If that isn't true then the "home time away from your family" might be better spent looking for a new job (or learning something that your next job might need).






                        share|improve this answer













                        The new guy is almost right, the following statement is true in general:




                        "It's not upon your employer to give you time to learn"

                        and we should all be [learning] in our spare time at home.




                        Although this is correct from a certain perspective, it is not correct in your circumstance.



                        In general:



                        1. It is actually on you to be familiar with new things.

                          This is a part of having a long career in IT. I don't mean that you should know all the new stuff, just that a web developer should be aware of anything big that comes out of Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Twitter, etc.

                        By "aware" I mean that you should know approximately what it is and what the supposed advantages are (why people are choosing it).

                        I do not mean that you should learn each thing that comes out (that's not even possible).



                        In your case:



                        1. You are competent with your current work, and your employer wants to pivot in a new direction.

                          In this case it is appropriate for you to expect work time to be used learning the "new thing".


                        I just feel that the onus is on the employer to give some time to learn and adapt




                        You are correct.

                        However, I would recommend that in the near term (until you are competent in the new tech) that you take some time from your spouse and daughter and invest it "in your career" so you will be ahead of the other people learning this, instead of the laggard.



                        This answer assumes that the "new thing" is (in your opinion) worth learning.

                        If that isn't true then the "home time away from your family" might be better spent looking for a new job (or learning something that your next job might need).







                        share|improve this answer












                        share|improve this answer



                        share|improve this answer










                        answered 2 days ago









                        J. Chris ComptonJ. Chris Compton

                        5,4821233




                        5,4821233












                        • Why people are doing it, cause a google search result told everyone the same thing. No wonder google apis are so in vogue today...

                          – marshal craft
                          yesterday






                        • 3





                          Also you are recommending to take time from family, to invest in a job, technology, which can come and go at the slightest whim. That is not responsible advice, or even necessary.

                          – marshal craft
                          yesterday











                        • Hmmm maybe wording comes off a bit weird, not terrible answer, +1

                          – marshal craft
                          yesterday











                        • @marshalcraft Yes, I am suggesting some time from family (etc.) be taken for study at home. Enough to ensure that OP is at least in the middle of the line learning the new stuff (maybe no time at home, maybe hours). I say this because OP has a family and presumably wants a career so he can provide for them... and the truth is that (figuratively speaking) sometimes at work the tail gets cut off.

                          – J. Chris Compton
                          yesterday

















                        • Why people are doing it, cause a google search result told everyone the same thing. No wonder google apis are so in vogue today...

                          – marshal craft
                          yesterday






                        • 3





                          Also you are recommending to take time from family, to invest in a job, technology, which can come and go at the slightest whim. That is not responsible advice, or even necessary.

                          – marshal craft
                          yesterday











                        • Hmmm maybe wording comes off a bit weird, not terrible answer, +1

                          – marshal craft
                          yesterday











                        • @marshalcraft Yes, I am suggesting some time from family (etc.) be taken for study at home. Enough to ensure that OP is at least in the middle of the line learning the new stuff (maybe no time at home, maybe hours). I say this because OP has a family and presumably wants a career so he can provide for them... and the truth is that (figuratively speaking) sometimes at work the tail gets cut off.

                          – J. Chris Compton
                          yesterday
















                        Why people are doing it, cause a google search result told everyone the same thing. No wonder google apis are so in vogue today...

                        – marshal craft
                        yesterday





                        Why people are doing it, cause a google search result told everyone the same thing. No wonder google apis are so in vogue today...

                        – marshal craft
                        yesterday




                        3




                        3





                        Also you are recommending to take time from family, to invest in a job, technology, which can come and go at the slightest whim. That is not responsible advice, or even necessary.

                        – marshal craft
                        yesterday





                        Also you are recommending to take time from family, to invest in a job, technology, which can come and go at the slightest whim. That is not responsible advice, or even necessary.

                        – marshal craft
                        yesterday













                        Hmmm maybe wording comes off a bit weird, not terrible answer, +1

                        – marshal craft
                        yesterday





                        Hmmm maybe wording comes off a bit weird, not terrible answer, +1

                        – marshal craft
                        yesterday













                        @marshalcraft Yes, I am suggesting some time from family (etc.) be taken for study at home. Enough to ensure that OP is at least in the middle of the line learning the new stuff (maybe no time at home, maybe hours). I say this because OP has a family and presumably wants a career so he can provide for them... and the truth is that (figuratively speaking) sometimes at work the tail gets cut off.

                        – J. Chris Compton
                        yesterday





                        @marshalcraft Yes, I am suggesting some time from family (etc.) be taken for study at home. Enough to ensure that OP is at least in the middle of the line learning the new stuff (maybe no time at home, maybe hours). I say this because OP has a family and presumably wants a career so he can provide for them... and the truth is that (figuratively speaking) sometimes at work the tail gets cut off.

                        – J. Chris Compton
                        yesterday











                        2














                        Totally not. Not even worth discussing it.
                        Your free time is yours. If they want you to spend extra time - they have to pay overtime.
                        If you agree to study for free for them next time they may ask you to do accounting for them on your spare time.






                        share|improve this answer



























                          2














                          Totally not. Not even worth discussing it.
                          Your free time is yours. If they want you to spend extra time - they have to pay overtime.
                          If you agree to study for free for them next time they may ask you to do accounting for them on your spare time.






                          share|improve this answer

























                            2












                            2








                            2







                            Totally not. Not even worth discussing it.
                            Your free time is yours. If they want you to spend extra time - they have to pay overtime.
                            If you agree to study for free for them next time they may ask you to do accounting for them on your spare time.






                            share|improve this answer













                            Totally not. Not even worth discussing it.
                            Your free time is yours. If they want you to spend extra time - they have to pay overtime.
                            If you agree to study for free for them next time they may ask you to do accounting for them on your spare time.







                            share|improve this answer












                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer










                            answered 2 days ago









                            DimaDima

                            1674




                            1674





















                                2














                                In all the discussions, I see people debating norms concerning right and wrong. While these ideas are good compasses to keep us well regulated when nobody is looking, it rarely serves us well when another party is involved and exercising leverage against us (i.e. paycheck).



                                Generally speaking, what is okay and isn't okay is based on the perspective of the individual being requested action of.



                                In my experience, I've been asked to do things I wasn't entirely pleased with. When those things happen, I feel that the energy of being spurred to action by an overly demanding employer is to look for your next place to land at. Outwardly complaining will weaken your negotiating position as they will have time to try and replace you before you get to ultimatums. Don't tell them you're looking. Just spring it up when the opportunity is in your hands (and not kind of, but you have your first day of new work scheduled). If notice isn't possible, don't worry about it. You don't owe courtesies to people who disrespect your time.



                                Emotional events can really have us looking for divine justice, but here in the real world, we tend to get what we get. Don't let pride or a sense of justice weaken your position with a boss who wants off the clock work with no compensation. And if you worry about the team when you're on the way out the door and your boss asks you to stay, ask for what staying is REALLY worth (at this point) to you (and staying might now be worth it at this point, but I like putting dollar signs on things) and negotiate work conditions at that time. If negotiations fall apart, remind your boss that he has at least one employee who doesn't mind doing stuff for free. If he looks like he/she is considering it, you would have made the world a better place with a loud mouth in check.



                                As you consider this answer, I would like to refer you to MC Hawking, because I believe laughing is super important in stressful situations: All My Shootings Be Drivebys






                                share|improve this answer










                                New contributor




                                Super-WhyDoYouWantToDoThat-Man is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                Check out our Code of Conduct.
























                                  2














                                  In all the discussions, I see people debating norms concerning right and wrong. While these ideas are good compasses to keep us well regulated when nobody is looking, it rarely serves us well when another party is involved and exercising leverage against us (i.e. paycheck).



                                  Generally speaking, what is okay and isn't okay is based on the perspective of the individual being requested action of.



                                  In my experience, I've been asked to do things I wasn't entirely pleased with. When those things happen, I feel that the energy of being spurred to action by an overly demanding employer is to look for your next place to land at. Outwardly complaining will weaken your negotiating position as they will have time to try and replace you before you get to ultimatums. Don't tell them you're looking. Just spring it up when the opportunity is in your hands (and not kind of, but you have your first day of new work scheduled). If notice isn't possible, don't worry about it. You don't owe courtesies to people who disrespect your time.



                                  Emotional events can really have us looking for divine justice, but here in the real world, we tend to get what we get. Don't let pride or a sense of justice weaken your position with a boss who wants off the clock work with no compensation. And if you worry about the team when you're on the way out the door and your boss asks you to stay, ask for what staying is REALLY worth (at this point) to you (and staying might now be worth it at this point, but I like putting dollar signs on things) and negotiate work conditions at that time. If negotiations fall apart, remind your boss that he has at least one employee who doesn't mind doing stuff for free. If he looks like he/she is considering it, you would have made the world a better place with a loud mouth in check.



                                  As you consider this answer, I would like to refer you to MC Hawking, because I believe laughing is super important in stressful situations: All My Shootings Be Drivebys






                                  share|improve this answer










                                  New contributor




                                  Super-WhyDoYouWantToDoThat-Man is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                  Check out our Code of Conduct.






















                                    2












                                    2








                                    2







                                    In all the discussions, I see people debating norms concerning right and wrong. While these ideas are good compasses to keep us well regulated when nobody is looking, it rarely serves us well when another party is involved and exercising leverage against us (i.e. paycheck).



                                    Generally speaking, what is okay and isn't okay is based on the perspective of the individual being requested action of.



                                    In my experience, I've been asked to do things I wasn't entirely pleased with. When those things happen, I feel that the energy of being spurred to action by an overly demanding employer is to look for your next place to land at. Outwardly complaining will weaken your negotiating position as they will have time to try and replace you before you get to ultimatums. Don't tell them you're looking. Just spring it up when the opportunity is in your hands (and not kind of, but you have your first day of new work scheduled). If notice isn't possible, don't worry about it. You don't owe courtesies to people who disrespect your time.



                                    Emotional events can really have us looking for divine justice, but here in the real world, we tend to get what we get. Don't let pride or a sense of justice weaken your position with a boss who wants off the clock work with no compensation. And if you worry about the team when you're on the way out the door and your boss asks you to stay, ask for what staying is REALLY worth (at this point) to you (and staying might now be worth it at this point, but I like putting dollar signs on things) and negotiate work conditions at that time. If negotiations fall apart, remind your boss that he has at least one employee who doesn't mind doing stuff for free. If he looks like he/she is considering it, you would have made the world a better place with a loud mouth in check.



                                    As you consider this answer, I would like to refer you to MC Hawking, because I believe laughing is super important in stressful situations: All My Shootings Be Drivebys






                                    share|improve this answer










                                    New contributor




                                    Super-WhyDoYouWantToDoThat-Man is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                    Check out our Code of Conduct.










                                    In all the discussions, I see people debating norms concerning right and wrong. While these ideas are good compasses to keep us well regulated when nobody is looking, it rarely serves us well when another party is involved and exercising leverage against us (i.e. paycheck).



                                    Generally speaking, what is okay and isn't okay is based on the perspective of the individual being requested action of.



                                    In my experience, I've been asked to do things I wasn't entirely pleased with. When those things happen, I feel that the energy of being spurred to action by an overly demanding employer is to look for your next place to land at. Outwardly complaining will weaken your negotiating position as they will have time to try and replace you before you get to ultimatums. Don't tell them you're looking. Just spring it up when the opportunity is in your hands (and not kind of, but you have your first day of new work scheduled). If notice isn't possible, don't worry about it. You don't owe courtesies to people who disrespect your time.



                                    Emotional events can really have us looking for divine justice, but here in the real world, we tend to get what we get. Don't let pride or a sense of justice weaken your position with a boss who wants off the clock work with no compensation. And if you worry about the team when you're on the way out the door and your boss asks you to stay, ask for what staying is REALLY worth (at this point) to you (and staying might now be worth it at this point, but I like putting dollar signs on things) and negotiate work conditions at that time. If negotiations fall apart, remind your boss that he has at least one employee who doesn't mind doing stuff for free. If he looks like he/she is considering it, you would have made the world a better place with a loud mouth in check.



                                    As you consider this answer, I would like to refer you to MC Hawking, because I believe laughing is super important in stressful situations: All My Shootings Be Drivebys







                                    share|improve this answer










                                    New contributor




                                    Super-WhyDoYouWantToDoThat-Man is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                    Check out our Code of Conduct.









                                    share|improve this answer



                                    share|improve this answer








                                    edited 3 hours ago









                                    Peter Mortensen

                                    58647




                                    58647






                                    New contributor




                                    Super-WhyDoYouWantToDoThat-Man is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                    Check out our Code of Conduct.









                                    answered 2 days ago









                                    Super-WhyDoYouWantToDoThat-ManSuper-WhyDoYouWantToDoThat-Man

                                    393




                                    393




                                    New contributor




                                    Super-WhyDoYouWantToDoThat-Man is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                    Check out our Code of Conduct.





                                    New contributor





                                    Super-WhyDoYouWantToDoThat-Man is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                    Check out our Code of Conduct.






                                    Super-WhyDoYouWantToDoThat-Man is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                    Check out our Code of Conduct.





















                                        1














                                        Take a compromise approach and differentiate yourself in the process



                                        Assuming the new technology stack is 'industry-relevant' (rather than just a specific proprietary setup in your particular company) there are likely to be benefits for both yourself and your employer in engaging with that learning process in a "proactive" sort of way. For yourself it would be opportunities in both this company, and potentially to look elsewhere in the future.



                                        In my experience the employer would typically offer some training or at least handover of some kind (what's the role of your new team member? Implementing and handing over the new stack?) but that could just be something like access to Pluralsight or similar, rather than an actual detailed and specific training course or on-the-job training.



                                        However... there are likely several people in your position (you described it as "getting us swapped over" and I'm assuming that's a team of at least 3-4 people who work on this stack) on a spectrum of "I'm fully responsible for my own career and being fitted to the new environment" through to "The company requires us to be fluent in Stack X so we require the company to provide training in Stack X".



                                        Where do you want to be on that 'spectrum'?



                                        If it benefits both yourself and the company, I'd propose taking a hybrid (compromise) approach, e.g.:



                                        • the company gives you 2 hours (or whatever is appropriate) per day and you spend 1 hour per day

                                        • the company funds relevant certifications and allows some time to study during the work day but you take the exam in your own time

                                        • similar "giving from both sides" approaches.

                                        The benefits of this are:



                                        • you benefit to a greater degree and potentially can get employment elsewhere in the future with a more "desirable" technology stack.

                                        • your employer sees you as willing to develop, take on new stuff, etc

                                        • you "get in at the beginning" and potentially are able to become more of an expert on this and be 'senior' (in knowledge) to others.

                                        • you can talk about this experience in future interviews and come out of it in a positive light!





                                        share|improve this answer

























                                        • Not really part of the answer but I have had this argument/debate with people so many times! "If the company requires it, they need to provide the resources [including time]" vs "I need to adapt to my new environment" One has the sense of its own agency and the other is just at the mercy of external forces....

                                          – seventyeightist
                                          2 days ago












                                        • +1 for seeking a middle ground. Black and white thinking is good for working with computers, but not for working with humans.

                                          – krubo
                                          yesterday
















                                        1














                                        Take a compromise approach and differentiate yourself in the process



                                        Assuming the new technology stack is 'industry-relevant' (rather than just a specific proprietary setup in your particular company) there are likely to be benefits for both yourself and your employer in engaging with that learning process in a "proactive" sort of way. For yourself it would be opportunities in both this company, and potentially to look elsewhere in the future.



                                        In my experience the employer would typically offer some training or at least handover of some kind (what's the role of your new team member? Implementing and handing over the new stack?) but that could just be something like access to Pluralsight or similar, rather than an actual detailed and specific training course or on-the-job training.



                                        However... there are likely several people in your position (you described it as "getting us swapped over" and I'm assuming that's a team of at least 3-4 people who work on this stack) on a spectrum of "I'm fully responsible for my own career and being fitted to the new environment" through to "The company requires us to be fluent in Stack X so we require the company to provide training in Stack X".



                                        Where do you want to be on that 'spectrum'?



                                        If it benefits both yourself and the company, I'd propose taking a hybrid (compromise) approach, e.g.:



                                        • the company gives you 2 hours (or whatever is appropriate) per day and you spend 1 hour per day

                                        • the company funds relevant certifications and allows some time to study during the work day but you take the exam in your own time

                                        • similar "giving from both sides" approaches.

                                        The benefits of this are:



                                        • you benefit to a greater degree and potentially can get employment elsewhere in the future with a more "desirable" technology stack.

                                        • your employer sees you as willing to develop, take on new stuff, etc

                                        • you "get in at the beginning" and potentially are able to become more of an expert on this and be 'senior' (in knowledge) to others.

                                        • you can talk about this experience in future interviews and come out of it in a positive light!





                                        share|improve this answer

























                                        • Not really part of the answer but I have had this argument/debate with people so many times! "If the company requires it, they need to provide the resources [including time]" vs "I need to adapt to my new environment" One has the sense of its own agency and the other is just at the mercy of external forces....

                                          – seventyeightist
                                          2 days ago












                                        • +1 for seeking a middle ground. Black and white thinking is good for working with computers, but not for working with humans.

                                          – krubo
                                          yesterday














                                        1












                                        1








                                        1







                                        Take a compromise approach and differentiate yourself in the process



                                        Assuming the new technology stack is 'industry-relevant' (rather than just a specific proprietary setup in your particular company) there are likely to be benefits for both yourself and your employer in engaging with that learning process in a "proactive" sort of way. For yourself it would be opportunities in both this company, and potentially to look elsewhere in the future.



                                        In my experience the employer would typically offer some training or at least handover of some kind (what's the role of your new team member? Implementing and handing over the new stack?) but that could just be something like access to Pluralsight or similar, rather than an actual detailed and specific training course or on-the-job training.



                                        However... there are likely several people in your position (you described it as "getting us swapped over" and I'm assuming that's a team of at least 3-4 people who work on this stack) on a spectrum of "I'm fully responsible for my own career and being fitted to the new environment" through to "The company requires us to be fluent in Stack X so we require the company to provide training in Stack X".



                                        Where do you want to be on that 'spectrum'?



                                        If it benefits both yourself and the company, I'd propose taking a hybrid (compromise) approach, e.g.:



                                        • the company gives you 2 hours (or whatever is appropriate) per day and you spend 1 hour per day

                                        • the company funds relevant certifications and allows some time to study during the work day but you take the exam in your own time

                                        • similar "giving from both sides" approaches.

                                        The benefits of this are:



                                        • you benefit to a greater degree and potentially can get employment elsewhere in the future with a more "desirable" technology stack.

                                        • your employer sees you as willing to develop, take on new stuff, etc

                                        • you "get in at the beginning" and potentially are able to become more of an expert on this and be 'senior' (in knowledge) to others.

                                        • you can talk about this experience in future interviews and come out of it in a positive light!





                                        share|improve this answer















                                        Take a compromise approach and differentiate yourself in the process



                                        Assuming the new technology stack is 'industry-relevant' (rather than just a specific proprietary setup in your particular company) there are likely to be benefits for both yourself and your employer in engaging with that learning process in a "proactive" sort of way. For yourself it would be opportunities in both this company, and potentially to look elsewhere in the future.



                                        In my experience the employer would typically offer some training or at least handover of some kind (what's the role of your new team member? Implementing and handing over the new stack?) but that could just be something like access to Pluralsight or similar, rather than an actual detailed and specific training course or on-the-job training.



                                        However... there are likely several people in your position (you described it as "getting us swapped over" and I'm assuming that's a team of at least 3-4 people who work on this stack) on a spectrum of "I'm fully responsible for my own career and being fitted to the new environment" through to "The company requires us to be fluent in Stack X so we require the company to provide training in Stack X".



                                        Where do you want to be on that 'spectrum'?



                                        If it benefits both yourself and the company, I'd propose taking a hybrid (compromise) approach, e.g.:



                                        • the company gives you 2 hours (or whatever is appropriate) per day and you spend 1 hour per day

                                        • the company funds relevant certifications and allows some time to study during the work day but you take the exam in your own time

                                        • similar "giving from both sides" approaches.

                                        The benefits of this are:



                                        • you benefit to a greater degree and potentially can get employment elsewhere in the future with a more "desirable" technology stack.

                                        • your employer sees you as willing to develop, take on new stuff, etc

                                        • you "get in at the beginning" and potentially are able to become more of an expert on this and be 'senior' (in knowledge) to others.

                                        • you can talk about this experience in future interviews and come out of it in a positive light!






                                        share|improve this answer














                                        share|improve this answer



                                        share|improve this answer








                                        edited 2 days ago

























                                        answered 2 days ago









                                        seventyeightistseventyeightist

                                        1747




                                        1747












                                        • Not really part of the answer but I have had this argument/debate with people so many times! "If the company requires it, they need to provide the resources [including time]" vs "I need to adapt to my new environment" One has the sense of its own agency and the other is just at the mercy of external forces....

                                          – seventyeightist
                                          2 days ago












                                        • +1 for seeking a middle ground. Black and white thinking is good for working with computers, but not for working with humans.

                                          – krubo
                                          yesterday


















                                        • Not really part of the answer but I have had this argument/debate with people so many times! "If the company requires it, they need to provide the resources [including time]" vs "I need to adapt to my new environment" One has the sense of its own agency and the other is just at the mercy of external forces....

                                          – seventyeightist
                                          2 days ago












                                        • +1 for seeking a middle ground. Black and white thinking is good for working with computers, but not for working with humans.

                                          – krubo
                                          yesterday

















                                        Not really part of the answer but I have had this argument/debate with people so many times! "If the company requires it, they need to provide the resources [including time]" vs "I need to adapt to my new environment" One has the sense of its own agency and the other is just at the mercy of external forces....

                                        – seventyeightist
                                        2 days ago






                                        Not really part of the answer but I have had this argument/debate with people so many times! "If the company requires it, they need to provide the resources [including time]" vs "I need to adapt to my new environment" One has the sense of its own agency and the other is just at the mercy of external forces....

                                        – seventyeightist
                                        2 days ago














                                        +1 for seeking a middle ground. Black and white thinking is good for working with computers, but not for working with humans.

                                        – krubo
                                        yesterday






                                        +1 for seeking a middle ground. Black and white thinking is good for working with computers, but not for working with humans.

                                        – krubo
                                        yesterday












                                        0














                                        To coincide with many of the answers already offered, I will point out something significant about onus. The truth is that, especially in business, there is no such thing. You are in a competitive economy where everyone is attempting to do what is in their own best interest.



                                        That being said, your boss and this new employee are not working in their own best interest by requiring that you train yourself on your own time. Trust is an asset, which they have in you. They lose that asset and start over with a brand-spanking new employee if they require this of you and you don't comply.



                                        You can point this out to them openly and in good faith. Tell them that your education is as much theirs as it is yours if you are to be in a mutually functional relationship with them. There is no hierarchy. Your "boss" just has a different job than you.



                                        If this new employee wishes to let himself be taken advantage of... it's still not just on him. You also suffer from the repricussions of wasted time and increased frustration if he burns himself out.



                                        There is always a limit to how much you could benefit from someone at their expense and still benefit overall. You just need to consider the bigger picture and remind yourself that all social interaction is pointless if there is no mutual benefit.






                                        share|improve this answer








                                        New contributor




                                        Philosophist is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                        Check out our Code of Conduct.
























                                          0














                                          To coincide with many of the answers already offered, I will point out something significant about onus. The truth is that, especially in business, there is no such thing. You are in a competitive economy where everyone is attempting to do what is in their own best interest.



                                          That being said, your boss and this new employee are not working in their own best interest by requiring that you train yourself on your own time. Trust is an asset, which they have in you. They lose that asset and start over with a brand-spanking new employee if they require this of you and you don't comply.



                                          You can point this out to them openly and in good faith. Tell them that your education is as much theirs as it is yours if you are to be in a mutually functional relationship with them. There is no hierarchy. Your "boss" just has a different job than you.



                                          If this new employee wishes to let himself be taken advantage of... it's still not just on him. You also suffer from the repricussions of wasted time and increased frustration if he burns himself out.



                                          There is always a limit to how much you could benefit from someone at their expense and still benefit overall. You just need to consider the bigger picture and remind yourself that all social interaction is pointless if there is no mutual benefit.






                                          share|improve this answer








                                          New contributor




                                          Philosophist is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                          Check out our Code of Conduct.






















                                            0












                                            0








                                            0







                                            To coincide with many of the answers already offered, I will point out something significant about onus. The truth is that, especially in business, there is no such thing. You are in a competitive economy where everyone is attempting to do what is in their own best interest.



                                            That being said, your boss and this new employee are not working in their own best interest by requiring that you train yourself on your own time. Trust is an asset, which they have in you. They lose that asset and start over with a brand-spanking new employee if they require this of you and you don't comply.



                                            You can point this out to them openly and in good faith. Tell them that your education is as much theirs as it is yours if you are to be in a mutually functional relationship with them. There is no hierarchy. Your "boss" just has a different job than you.



                                            If this new employee wishes to let himself be taken advantage of... it's still not just on him. You also suffer from the repricussions of wasted time and increased frustration if he burns himself out.



                                            There is always a limit to how much you could benefit from someone at their expense and still benefit overall. You just need to consider the bigger picture and remind yourself that all social interaction is pointless if there is no mutual benefit.






                                            share|improve this answer








                                            New contributor




                                            Philosophist is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                            Check out our Code of Conduct.










                                            To coincide with many of the answers already offered, I will point out something significant about onus. The truth is that, especially in business, there is no such thing. You are in a competitive economy where everyone is attempting to do what is in their own best interest.



                                            That being said, your boss and this new employee are not working in their own best interest by requiring that you train yourself on your own time. Trust is an asset, which they have in you. They lose that asset and start over with a brand-spanking new employee if they require this of you and you don't comply.



                                            You can point this out to them openly and in good faith. Tell them that your education is as much theirs as it is yours if you are to be in a mutually functional relationship with them. There is no hierarchy. Your "boss" just has a different job than you.



                                            If this new employee wishes to let himself be taken advantage of... it's still not just on him. You also suffer from the repricussions of wasted time and increased frustration if he burns himself out.



                                            There is always a limit to how much you could benefit from someone at their expense and still benefit overall. You just need to consider the bigger picture and remind yourself that all social interaction is pointless if there is no mutual benefit.







                                            share|improve this answer








                                            New contributor




                                            Philosophist is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                            Check out our Code of Conduct.









                                            share|improve this answer



                                            share|improve this answer






                                            New contributor




                                            Philosophist is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                            Check out our Code of Conduct.









                                            answered yesterday









                                            PhilosophistPhilosophist

                                            32




                                            32




                                            New contributor




                                            Philosophist is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                                            New contributor





                                            Philosophist is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                            Check out our Code of Conduct.






                                            Philosophist is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                            Check out our Code of Conduct.





















                                                0














                                                No, it's not normal.



                                                You're hired to job X. Job X uses techs A, B and C and frameworks M and N.



                                                If something else is introduced, a new language or a framework (whatever really), it's up to the company to train its employee's to use it. Or, of course, take any of the following actions:



                                                • Allocate time (during work hours)

                                                • Offer courses and/or seminars to be followed

                                                • Offer usage of online/class courses to be followed

                                                • Get external experts to come and give a training to a whole department

                                                • Offer paid overtime hours for out-of-business-hours self-study

                                                Simply put: you get paid for the amount of hours stipulated in your contract to do the job also stipulated there.



                                                Anything outside of the job you were hired for and / or outside of contractual hours should be either a flat "no" or negotiated if you're open to the idea.



                                                If you do work (or study in this case), outside of your contract for the company, without an agreement, you've freely given them your time (and possibly increased your value for the company, also for free).






                                                share|improve this answer



























                                                  0














                                                  No, it's not normal.



                                                  You're hired to job X. Job X uses techs A, B and C and frameworks M and N.



                                                  If something else is introduced, a new language or a framework (whatever really), it's up to the company to train its employee's to use it. Or, of course, take any of the following actions:



                                                  • Allocate time (during work hours)

                                                  • Offer courses and/or seminars to be followed

                                                  • Offer usage of online/class courses to be followed

                                                  • Get external experts to come and give a training to a whole department

                                                  • Offer paid overtime hours for out-of-business-hours self-study

                                                  Simply put: you get paid for the amount of hours stipulated in your contract to do the job also stipulated there.



                                                  Anything outside of the job you were hired for and / or outside of contractual hours should be either a flat "no" or negotiated if you're open to the idea.



                                                  If you do work (or study in this case), outside of your contract for the company, without an agreement, you've freely given them your time (and possibly increased your value for the company, also for free).






                                                  share|improve this answer

























                                                    0












                                                    0








                                                    0







                                                    No, it's not normal.



                                                    You're hired to job X. Job X uses techs A, B and C and frameworks M and N.



                                                    If something else is introduced, a new language or a framework (whatever really), it's up to the company to train its employee's to use it. Or, of course, take any of the following actions:



                                                    • Allocate time (during work hours)

                                                    • Offer courses and/or seminars to be followed

                                                    • Offer usage of online/class courses to be followed

                                                    • Get external experts to come and give a training to a whole department

                                                    • Offer paid overtime hours for out-of-business-hours self-study

                                                    Simply put: you get paid for the amount of hours stipulated in your contract to do the job also stipulated there.



                                                    Anything outside of the job you were hired for and / or outside of contractual hours should be either a flat "no" or negotiated if you're open to the idea.



                                                    If you do work (or study in this case), outside of your contract for the company, without an agreement, you've freely given them your time (and possibly increased your value for the company, also for free).






                                                    share|improve this answer













                                                    No, it's not normal.



                                                    You're hired to job X. Job X uses techs A, B and C and frameworks M and N.



                                                    If something else is introduced, a new language or a framework (whatever really), it's up to the company to train its employee's to use it. Or, of course, take any of the following actions:



                                                    • Allocate time (during work hours)

                                                    • Offer courses and/or seminars to be followed

                                                    • Offer usage of online/class courses to be followed

                                                    • Get external experts to come and give a training to a whole department

                                                    • Offer paid overtime hours for out-of-business-hours self-study

                                                    Simply put: you get paid for the amount of hours stipulated in your contract to do the job also stipulated there.



                                                    Anything outside of the job you were hired for and / or outside of contractual hours should be either a flat "no" or negotiated if you're open to the idea.



                                                    If you do work (or study in this case), outside of your contract for the company, without an agreement, you've freely given them your time (and possibly increased your value for the company, also for free).







                                                    share|improve this answer












                                                    share|improve this answer



                                                    share|improve this answer










                                                    answered yesterday









                                                    rkeetrkeet

                                                    886515




                                                    886515





















                                                        0














                                                        Is it normal that a company wants to switch technology?



                                                        Yes it is, but hopefully it's not the norm. At my last company we had website written in ancient language but we eventually rewrote the entire site to a completely new language. Lots of new things to learn and it was fun.



                                                        Is it normal they want you to spend your own time to learn?



                                                        Depends on what it is. For example, if I wrote in C and we wrote a console app, and we want to port that to Win32, I would expect minimal problems adjusting and would expect the developers to learn Win32. You already know C and we hired you to write C software, not a framework or technology. So I'd expect you to adjust as needed. If a lawyer got a tough case, would you expect he only got on it 9-5 during normal hours? If a burglary police got a case, would you expect him to only work 9-5 M-F to solve your case?



                                                        Now if this was a completely new language, then yes, I would help assist that. I would expect developers to learn something on their own but would expect most of it done during working hours.






                                                        share|improve this answer



























                                                          0














                                                          Is it normal that a company wants to switch technology?



                                                          Yes it is, but hopefully it's not the norm. At my last company we had website written in ancient language but we eventually rewrote the entire site to a completely new language. Lots of new things to learn and it was fun.



                                                          Is it normal they want you to spend your own time to learn?



                                                          Depends on what it is. For example, if I wrote in C and we wrote a console app, and we want to port that to Win32, I would expect minimal problems adjusting and would expect the developers to learn Win32. You already know C and we hired you to write C software, not a framework or technology. So I'd expect you to adjust as needed. If a lawyer got a tough case, would you expect he only got on it 9-5 during normal hours? If a burglary police got a case, would you expect him to only work 9-5 M-F to solve your case?



                                                          Now if this was a completely new language, then yes, I would help assist that. I would expect developers to learn something on their own but would expect most of it done during working hours.






                                                          share|improve this answer

























                                                            0












                                                            0








                                                            0







                                                            Is it normal that a company wants to switch technology?



                                                            Yes it is, but hopefully it's not the norm. At my last company we had website written in ancient language but we eventually rewrote the entire site to a completely new language. Lots of new things to learn and it was fun.



                                                            Is it normal they want you to spend your own time to learn?



                                                            Depends on what it is. For example, if I wrote in C and we wrote a console app, and we want to port that to Win32, I would expect minimal problems adjusting and would expect the developers to learn Win32. You already know C and we hired you to write C software, not a framework or technology. So I'd expect you to adjust as needed. If a lawyer got a tough case, would you expect he only got on it 9-5 during normal hours? If a burglary police got a case, would you expect him to only work 9-5 M-F to solve your case?



                                                            Now if this was a completely new language, then yes, I would help assist that. I would expect developers to learn something on their own but would expect most of it done during working hours.






                                                            share|improve this answer













                                                            Is it normal that a company wants to switch technology?



                                                            Yes it is, but hopefully it's not the norm. At my last company we had website written in ancient language but we eventually rewrote the entire site to a completely new language. Lots of new things to learn and it was fun.



                                                            Is it normal they want you to spend your own time to learn?



                                                            Depends on what it is. For example, if I wrote in C and we wrote a console app, and we want to port that to Win32, I would expect minimal problems adjusting and would expect the developers to learn Win32. You already know C and we hired you to write C software, not a framework or technology. So I'd expect you to adjust as needed. If a lawyer got a tough case, would you expect he only got on it 9-5 during normal hours? If a burglary police got a case, would you expect him to only work 9-5 M-F to solve your case?



                                                            Now if this was a completely new language, then yes, I would help assist that. I would expect developers to learn something on their own but would expect most of it done during working hours.







                                                            share|improve this answer












                                                            share|improve this answer



                                                            share|improve this answer










                                                            answered yesterday









                                                            DanDan

                                                            9,97731734




                                                            9,97731734





















                                                                0














                                                                If it is as skill that the workplace requires, it is the workplaces responsibility to either hire people with that skill or train the people they have so they can acquire that skill.



                                                                Every large company has a section within HR that is responsible for training, for keeping track of the skills that people have, the skills their jobs require, and to make a plan about closing that gap.



                                                                There are even international norms which explicitly require such behaviour. For example, ISO 27002 for information security states in chapter 7.2.1 f)




                                                                Management responsibilities should include ensuring that employees and
                                                                contractors: [...] continue to have the appropriate skills and
                                                                qualifications and are educated on a regular basis;




                                                                Note the two key phrases: Management responsibility and are educated (not "educate themselves").



                                                                ISO 9001 for quality management has similar requirements and identifies in chapter 7.2 the responsibility of the organization to actively identify training requirements and to actively deliver training. (and document it and some other things)



                                                                Again, keywords: The responsibility is on the organisation and the organisation is the active part.



                                                                Now in IT there are a lot of intrinsically motivated people who develop their skills outside of work and there is nothing wrong with that. But there is a big difference between someone learning a new skill because they want to, because it interests them, and the company basically telling someone to do free work in their free time.




                                                                I sometimes wonder what questions people ask here, then I realize that it's because what the hell crazy people are walking around in the workplace?



                                                                To be absolutely clear: This new hire is full of shit. Expect more of the kind from him. Don't give in. Why would you do free work? The company doesn't give you free money, does it?






                                                                share|improve this answer



























                                                                  0














                                                                  If it is as skill that the workplace requires, it is the workplaces responsibility to either hire people with that skill or train the people they have so they can acquire that skill.



                                                                  Every large company has a section within HR that is responsible for training, for keeping track of the skills that people have, the skills their jobs require, and to make a plan about closing that gap.



                                                                  There are even international norms which explicitly require such behaviour. For example, ISO 27002 for information security states in chapter 7.2.1 f)




                                                                  Management responsibilities should include ensuring that employees and
                                                                  contractors: [...] continue to have the appropriate skills and
                                                                  qualifications and are educated on a regular basis;




                                                                  Note the two key phrases: Management responsibility and are educated (not "educate themselves").



                                                                  ISO 9001 for quality management has similar requirements and identifies in chapter 7.2 the responsibility of the organization to actively identify training requirements and to actively deliver training. (and document it and some other things)



                                                                  Again, keywords: The responsibility is on the organisation and the organisation is the active part.



                                                                  Now in IT there are a lot of intrinsically motivated people who develop their skills outside of work and there is nothing wrong with that. But there is a big difference between someone learning a new skill because they want to, because it interests them, and the company basically telling someone to do free work in their free time.




                                                                  I sometimes wonder what questions people ask here, then I realize that it's because what the hell crazy people are walking around in the workplace?



                                                                  To be absolutely clear: This new hire is full of shit. Expect more of the kind from him. Don't give in. Why would you do free work? The company doesn't give you free money, does it?






                                                                  share|improve this answer

























                                                                    0












                                                                    0








                                                                    0







                                                                    If it is as skill that the workplace requires, it is the workplaces responsibility to either hire people with that skill or train the people they have so they can acquire that skill.



                                                                    Every large company has a section within HR that is responsible for training, for keeping track of the skills that people have, the skills their jobs require, and to make a plan about closing that gap.



                                                                    There are even international norms which explicitly require such behaviour. For example, ISO 27002 for information security states in chapter 7.2.1 f)




                                                                    Management responsibilities should include ensuring that employees and
                                                                    contractors: [...] continue to have the appropriate skills and
                                                                    qualifications and are educated on a regular basis;




                                                                    Note the two key phrases: Management responsibility and are educated (not "educate themselves").



                                                                    ISO 9001 for quality management has similar requirements and identifies in chapter 7.2 the responsibility of the organization to actively identify training requirements and to actively deliver training. (and document it and some other things)



                                                                    Again, keywords: The responsibility is on the organisation and the organisation is the active part.



                                                                    Now in IT there are a lot of intrinsically motivated people who develop their skills outside of work and there is nothing wrong with that. But there is a big difference between someone learning a new skill because they want to, because it interests them, and the company basically telling someone to do free work in their free time.




                                                                    I sometimes wonder what questions people ask here, then I realize that it's because what the hell crazy people are walking around in the workplace?



                                                                    To be absolutely clear: This new hire is full of shit. Expect more of the kind from him. Don't give in. Why would you do free work? The company doesn't give you free money, does it?






                                                                    share|improve this answer













                                                                    If it is as skill that the workplace requires, it is the workplaces responsibility to either hire people with that skill or train the people they have so they can acquire that skill.



                                                                    Every large company has a section within HR that is responsible for training, for keeping track of the skills that people have, the skills their jobs require, and to make a plan about closing that gap.



                                                                    There are even international norms which explicitly require such behaviour. For example, ISO 27002 for information security states in chapter 7.2.1 f)




                                                                    Management responsibilities should include ensuring that employees and
                                                                    contractors: [...] continue to have the appropriate skills and
                                                                    qualifications and are educated on a regular basis;




                                                                    Note the two key phrases: Management responsibility and are educated (not "educate themselves").



                                                                    ISO 9001 for quality management has similar requirements and identifies in chapter 7.2 the responsibility of the organization to actively identify training requirements and to actively deliver training. (and document it and some other things)



                                                                    Again, keywords: The responsibility is on the organisation and the organisation is the active part.



                                                                    Now in IT there are a lot of intrinsically motivated people who develop their skills outside of work and there is nothing wrong with that. But there is a big difference between someone learning a new skill because they want to, because it interests them, and the company basically telling someone to do free work in their free time.




                                                                    I sometimes wonder what questions people ask here, then I realize that it's because what the hell crazy people are walking around in the workplace?



                                                                    To be absolutely clear: This new hire is full of shit. Expect more of the kind from him. Don't give in. Why would you do free work? The company doesn't give you free money, does it?







                                                                    share|improve this answer












                                                                    share|improve this answer



                                                                    share|improve this answer










                                                                    answered 15 hours ago









                                                                    TomTom

                                                                    5,4151422




                                                                    5,4151422





















                                                                        -1















                                                                        Is this normal?




                                                                        Yes, this is pretty standard in software development in general and critical if you happen to be a consultant. I've personally had PMs say "We're going to put you on a new team. Start doing some bedtime reading on Framework XYZ". Ideally, you learn on the job while you are working in addition to any time spent outside of work. Typically you will not be expected to learn a radically different technology like going from Python to C. Learning new frameworks, libraries, and languages is part of a career in development.




                                                                        is it really on me to spend my non-work hours to learn these?




                                                                        That is up to you to evaluate your situation, skills and career goals. Is this a new framework that you can figure out on the job and "fake it 'til you make it", or will this require serious study time to get acquainted with a drastically different technology? Is your job going to be in jeopardy if the rest of the team picks up this technology at home in the next couple of weeks, while it takes you a couple of months of dedicated on the job learning? Is this a skill worth mastering that can improve your resume?






                                                                        share|improve this answer








                                                                        New contributor




                                                                        Casey Langford is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                                                        Check out our Code of Conduct.















                                                                        • 5





                                                                          If this is the standard that you've experienced then you have been working for sub-par employers. Anything you do for the company's benefit should be billable time and if your company isn't down with that, it may be worth re-evaluating whether you want to continue working there.

                                                                          – aleppke
                                                                          2 days ago






                                                                        • 2





                                                                          Re:" if the rest of the team picks up this technology at home in the next couple of weeks, while it takes you a couple of months of dedicated on the job learning?". So you really think something that can be learned in a couple of weeks in a person's spare time at home would take months while on the job? Your example of PMs personally telling you to do some bedtime reading doesn't seem like a task you've been assigned; seems more like just a heads up we are using this technology. They probably just hope you'll read an overview or 2 so you have a clue on day 1.

                                                                          – Dunk
                                                                          2 days ago






                                                                        • 1





                                                                          Bloody well is not normal in software dev. Just because you as a dev like to learn, it's definitely not normal for a company to demand unpaid overtime. Luckily, in case of OP, it's just some random new dude whom does not sign the paychecks. Definitely a -1 suggesting this is normal

                                                                          – rkeet
                                                                          yesterday















                                                                        -1















                                                                        Is this normal?




                                                                        Yes, this is pretty standard in software development in general and critical if you happen to be a consultant. I've personally had PMs say "We're going to put you on a new team. Start doing some bedtime reading on Framework XYZ". Ideally, you learn on the job while you are working in addition to any time spent outside of work. Typically you will not be expected to learn a radically different technology like going from Python to C. Learning new frameworks, libraries, and languages is part of a career in development.




                                                                        is it really on me to spend my non-work hours to learn these?




                                                                        That is up to you to evaluate your situation, skills and career goals. Is this a new framework that you can figure out on the job and "fake it 'til you make it", or will this require serious study time to get acquainted with a drastically different technology? Is your job going to be in jeopardy if the rest of the team picks up this technology at home in the next couple of weeks, while it takes you a couple of months of dedicated on the job learning? Is this a skill worth mastering that can improve your resume?






                                                                        share|improve this answer








                                                                        New contributor




                                                                        Casey Langford is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                                                        Check out our Code of Conduct.















                                                                        • 5





                                                                          If this is the standard that you've experienced then you have been working for sub-par employers. Anything you do for the company's benefit should be billable time and if your company isn't down with that, it may be worth re-evaluating whether you want to continue working there.

                                                                          – aleppke
                                                                          2 days ago






                                                                        • 2





                                                                          Re:" if the rest of the team picks up this technology at home in the next couple of weeks, while it takes you a couple of months of dedicated on the job learning?". So you really think something that can be learned in a couple of weeks in a person's spare time at home would take months while on the job? Your example of PMs personally telling you to do some bedtime reading doesn't seem like a task you've been assigned; seems more like just a heads up we are using this technology. They probably just hope you'll read an overview or 2 so you have a clue on day 1.

                                                                          – Dunk
                                                                          2 days ago






                                                                        • 1





                                                                          Bloody well is not normal in software dev. Just because you as a dev like to learn, it's definitely not normal for a company to demand unpaid overtime. Luckily, in case of OP, it's just some random new dude whom does not sign the paychecks. Definitely a -1 suggesting this is normal

                                                                          – rkeet
                                                                          yesterday













                                                                        -1












                                                                        -1








                                                                        -1








                                                                        Is this normal?




                                                                        Yes, this is pretty standard in software development in general and critical if you happen to be a consultant. I've personally had PMs say "We're going to put you on a new team. Start doing some bedtime reading on Framework XYZ". Ideally, you learn on the job while you are working in addition to any time spent outside of work. Typically you will not be expected to learn a radically different technology like going from Python to C. Learning new frameworks, libraries, and languages is part of a career in development.




                                                                        is it really on me to spend my non-work hours to learn these?




                                                                        That is up to you to evaluate your situation, skills and career goals. Is this a new framework that you can figure out on the job and "fake it 'til you make it", or will this require serious study time to get acquainted with a drastically different technology? Is your job going to be in jeopardy if the rest of the team picks up this technology at home in the next couple of weeks, while it takes you a couple of months of dedicated on the job learning? Is this a skill worth mastering that can improve your resume?






                                                                        share|improve this answer








                                                                        New contributor




                                                                        Casey Langford is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                                                        Check out our Code of Conduct.











                                                                        Is this normal?




                                                                        Yes, this is pretty standard in software development in general and critical if you happen to be a consultant. I've personally had PMs say "We're going to put you on a new team. Start doing some bedtime reading on Framework XYZ". Ideally, you learn on the job while you are working in addition to any time spent outside of work. Typically you will not be expected to learn a radically different technology like going from Python to C. Learning new frameworks, libraries, and languages is part of a career in development.




                                                                        is it really on me to spend my non-work hours to learn these?




                                                                        That is up to you to evaluate your situation, skills and career goals. Is this a new framework that you can figure out on the job and "fake it 'til you make it", or will this require serious study time to get acquainted with a drastically different technology? Is your job going to be in jeopardy if the rest of the team picks up this technology at home in the next couple of weeks, while it takes you a couple of months of dedicated on the job learning? Is this a skill worth mastering that can improve your resume?







                                                                        share|improve this answer








                                                                        New contributor




                                                                        Casey Langford is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                                                        Check out our Code of Conduct.









                                                                        share|improve this answer



                                                                        share|improve this answer






                                                                        New contributor




                                                                        Casey Langford is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                                                        Check out our Code of Conduct.









                                                                        answered 2 days ago









                                                                        Casey LangfordCasey Langford

                                                                        1391




                                                                        1391




                                                                        New contributor




                                                                        Casey Langford is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                                                        Check out our Code of Conduct.





                                                                        New contributor





                                                                        Casey Langford is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                                                        Check out our Code of Conduct.






                                                                        Casey Langford is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                                                        Check out our Code of Conduct.







                                                                        • 5





                                                                          If this is the standard that you've experienced then you have been working for sub-par employers. Anything you do for the company's benefit should be billable time and if your company isn't down with that, it may be worth re-evaluating whether you want to continue working there.

                                                                          – aleppke
                                                                          2 days ago






                                                                        • 2





                                                                          Re:" if the rest of the team picks up this technology at home in the next couple of weeks, while it takes you a couple of months of dedicated on the job learning?". So you really think something that can be learned in a couple of weeks in a person's spare time at home would take months while on the job? Your example of PMs personally telling you to do some bedtime reading doesn't seem like a task you've been assigned; seems more like just a heads up we are using this technology. They probably just hope you'll read an overview or 2 so you have a clue on day 1.

                                                                          – Dunk
                                                                          2 days ago






                                                                        • 1





                                                                          Bloody well is not normal in software dev. Just because you as a dev like to learn, it's definitely not normal for a company to demand unpaid overtime. Luckily, in case of OP, it's just some random new dude whom does not sign the paychecks. Definitely a -1 suggesting this is normal

                                                                          – rkeet
                                                                          yesterday












                                                                        • 5





                                                                          If this is the standard that you've experienced then you have been working for sub-par employers. Anything you do for the company's benefit should be billable time and if your company isn't down with that, it may be worth re-evaluating whether you want to continue working there.

                                                                          – aleppke
                                                                          2 days ago






                                                                        • 2





                                                                          Re:" if the rest of the team picks up this technology at home in the next couple of weeks, while it takes you a couple of months of dedicated on the job learning?". So you really think something that can be learned in a couple of weeks in a person's spare time at home would take months while on the job? Your example of PMs personally telling you to do some bedtime reading doesn't seem like a task you've been assigned; seems more like just a heads up we are using this technology. They probably just hope you'll read an overview or 2 so you have a clue on day 1.

                                                                          – Dunk
                                                                          2 days ago






                                                                        • 1





                                                                          Bloody well is not normal in software dev. Just because you as a dev like to learn, it's definitely not normal for a company to demand unpaid overtime. Luckily, in case of OP, it's just some random new dude whom does not sign the paychecks. Definitely a -1 suggesting this is normal

                                                                          – rkeet
                                                                          yesterday







                                                                        5




                                                                        5





                                                                        If this is the standard that you've experienced then you have been working for sub-par employers. Anything you do for the company's benefit should be billable time and if your company isn't down with that, it may be worth re-evaluating whether you want to continue working there.

                                                                        – aleppke
                                                                        2 days ago





                                                                        If this is the standard that you've experienced then you have been working for sub-par employers. Anything you do for the company's benefit should be billable time and if your company isn't down with that, it may be worth re-evaluating whether you want to continue working there.

                                                                        – aleppke
                                                                        2 days ago




                                                                        2




                                                                        2





                                                                        Re:" if the rest of the team picks up this technology at home in the next couple of weeks, while it takes you a couple of months of dedicated on the job learning?". So you really think something that can be learned in a couple of weeks in a person's spare time at home would take months while on the job? Your example of PMs personally telling you to do some bedtime reading doesn't seem like a task you've been assigned; seems more like just a heads up we are using this technology. They probably just hope you'll read an overview or 2 so you have a clue on day 1.

                                                                        – Dunk
                                                                        2 days ago





                                                                        Re:" if the rest of the team picks up this technology at home in the next couple of weeks, while it takes you a couple of months of dedicated on the job learning?". So you really think something that can be learned in a couple of weeks in a person's spare time at home would take months while on the job? Your example of PMs personally telling you to do some bedtime reading doesn't seem like a task you've been assigned; seems more like just a heads up we are using this technology. They probably just hope you'll read an overview or 2 so you have a clue on day 1.

                                                                        – Dunk
                                                                        2 days ago




                                                                        1




                                                                        1





                                                                        Bloody well is not normal in software dev. Just because you as a dev like to learn, it's definitely not normal for a company to demand unpaid overtime. Luckily, in case of OP, it's just some random new dude whom does not sign the paychecks. Definitely a -1 suggesting this is normal

                                                                        – rkeet
                                                                        yesterday





                                                                        Bloody well is not normal in software dev. Just because you as a dev like to learn, it's definitely not normal for a company to demand unpaid overtime. Luckily, in case of OP, it's just some random new dude whom does not sign the paychecks. Definitely a -1 suggesting this is normal

                                                                        – rkeet
                                                                        yesterday





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