If infinitesimal transformations commute why don't the generators of the Lorentz group commute?Why do we use the complexification of the Lorentz group?Difference Between Algebra of Infinitesimal Conformal Transformations & Conformal AlgebraSubgroup of Lorentz Group Generated by BoostsLorentz Group Generators: Two MethodsMeaning of Lorentz GeneratorsFinite lorentz transform for 4-vectors in terms of the generatorsOn the generators of the Lorentz groupLie group compactness from generatorsRelation between the Dirac Algebra and the Lorentz groupCommutation relations of the generators of the Lorentz group
Freedom of speech and where it applies
Longest common substring in linear time
How to color a curve
Drawing ramified coverings with tikz
Bob has never been a M before
A Permanent Norse Presence in America
How do you respond to a colleague from another team when they're wrongly expecting that you'll help them?
How do I repair my stair bannister?
Is possible to search in vim history?
How will losing mobility of one hand affect my career as a programmer?
How can "mimic phobia" be cured or prevented?
What does this horizontal bar at the first measure mean?
Should I stop contributing to retirement accounts?
Why does Async/Await work properly when the loop is inside the async function and not the other way around?
On a tidally locked planet, would time be quantized?
Diode in opposite direction?
Using a siddur to Daven from in a seforim store
How do I extrude a face to a single vertex
THT: What is a squared annular “ring”?
How do ground effect vehicles perform turns?
Can I use my Chinese passport to enter China after I acquired another citizenship?
Are all species of CANNA edible?
Greatest common substring
What is the grammatical term for “‑ed” words like these?
If infinitesimal transformations commute why don't the generators of the Lorentz group commute?
Why do we use the complexification of the Lorentz group?Difference Between Algebra of Infinitesimal Conformal Transformations & Conformal AlgebraSubgroup of Lorentz Group Generated by BoostsLorentz Group Generators: Two MethodsMeaning of Lorentz GeneratorsFinite lorentz transform for 4-vectors in terms of the generatorsOn the generators of the Lorentz groupLie group compactness from generatorsRelation between the Dirac Algebra and the Lorentz groupCommutation relations of the generators of the Lorentz group
$begingroup$
If infinitesimal transformations commute as proved e.g. on this mathworld.wolfram page, why are the commutators for the generators of the Lorentz group nonzero?
special-relativity group-theory lorentz-symmetry commutator lie-algebra
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If infinitesimal transformations commute as proved e.g. on this mathworld.wolfram page, why are the commutators for the generators of the Lorentz group nonzero?
special-relativity group-theory lorentz-symmetry commutator lie-algebra
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If infinitesimal transformations commute as proved e.g. on this mathworld.wolfram page, why are the commutators for the generators of the Lorentz group nonzero?
special-relativity group-theory lorentz-symmetry commutator lie-algebra
$endgroup$
If infinitesimal transformations commute as proved e.g. on this mathworld.wolfram page, why are the commutators for the generators of the Lorentz group nonzero?
special-relativity group-theory lorentz-symmetry commutator lie-algebra
special-relativity group-theory lorentz-symmetry commutator lie-algebra
edited 11 hours ago
Qmechanic♦
106k121961227
106k121961227
asked yesterday
KALLE THE BAWSMANKALLE THE BAWSMAN
1167
1167
add a comment |
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
I'll use ordinary rotations as an example. The same reasoning applies for other Lorentz transformations, too.
Suppose that $G_x$ and $G_y$ generate rotations about the $x$- and $y$-axes, respectively. This means that $exp(theta G_x)$ is a rotation through angle $theta$ about the $x$-axis, and $exp(phi G_y)$ is a rotation through angle $phi$ about the $y$-axis. Those rotations don't commute with each other, so $G_x$ and $G_y$ must not commute with each other, either.
When the linked website (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/InfinitesimalRotation.html) talks about the "commutativity of infinitesimal transformations," it means that if the angles $theta$ and $phi$ both have infinitesimal magnitude $epsilonll 1$, then the rotations $exp(theta G_x)$ and $exp(phi G_y)$ commute with each other to first order in $epsilon$. This is true even though the generators $G_x$ and $G_y$ don't commute with each other, because the terms in the composite rotation $exp(theta G_x)exp(phi G_y)$ that involve products of $G_x$ and $G_y$ are of order $epsilon^2llepsilon$, so the non-commutativity of the generators $G_x$ and $G_y$ doesn't affect things at first order in $epsilon$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Illustrative example: It is straightforward to prove that the Lie group
$$ SO(3)~:=~ Min rm Mat_3times 3(mathbbR) mid M^tM=mathbb1_3times 3, ~det(M)=1 $$
of 3D rotations is generated by the corresponding Lie algebra
$$ so(3)~:=~ min rm Mat_3times 3(mathbbR) mid m^t=-m $$
of real $3times 3$ antisymmetric matrices, which clearly do not all commute.Concretely notice how the mathworld.wolfram page in eqs. (2)-(5) omits the second-order terms, whose difference reveals the commutator!
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
While
beginalign
e^epsilon A e^epsilon B&=(1+epsilon A+textstylefrac12epsilon^2 A^2+ldots)(1+epsilon B+frac12epsilon^2 B^2+ldots)tag1, ,\
&= 1+ epsilon (A+B)+ frac12
epsilon^2 (A^2+AB +B^2)+ldots
endalign
we have
beginalign
e^epsilon B e^epsilon A&=(1+epsilon B+frac12epsilon^2 B^2+ldots)(1+epsilon A+textstylefrac12epsilon^2 A^2+ldots), ,tag2\
&= 1+ epsilon (B+A)+ frac12
epsilon^2 (A^2+BA +B^2)+ldots
endalign
so:
- To order $epsilon$, the transformations are the same,
- To order $epsilon^2$ they are different.
Since the commutator $[A,B]$ involves products like $AB$ and $BA$, one must compare terms in $epsilon^2$ in (1) and (2) to see that they differ by a commutator.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function ()
StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix)
StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
);
);
, "mathjax-editing");
StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "151"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);
else
createEditor();
);
function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);
);
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f468216%2fif-infinitesimal-transformations-commute-why-dont-the-generators-of-the-lorentz%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
I'll use ordinary rotations as an example. The same reasoning applies for other Lorentz transformations, too.
Suppose that $G_x$ and $G_y$ generate rotations about the $x$- and $y$-axes, respectively. This means that $exp(theta G_x)$ is a rotation through angle $theta$ about the $x$-axis, and $exp(phi G_y)$ is a rotation through angle $phi$ about the $y$-axis. Those rotations don't commute with each other, so $G_x$ and $G_y$ must not commute with each other, either.
When the linked website (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/InfinitesimalRotation.html) talks about the "commutativity of infinitesimal transformations," it means that if the angles $theta$ and $phi$ both have infinitesimal magnitude $epsilonll 1$, then the rotations $exp(theta G_x)$ and $exp(phi G_y)$ commute with each other to first order in $epsilon$. This is true even though the generators $G_x$ and $G_y$ don't commute with each other, because the terms in the composite rotation $exp(theta G_x)exp(phi G_y)$ that involve products of $G_x$ and $G_y$ are of order $epsilon^2llepsilon$, so the non-commutativity of the generators $G_x$ and $G_y$ doesn't affect things at first order in $epsilon$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I'll use ordinary rotations as an example. The same reasoning applies for other Lorentz transformations, too.
Suppose that $G_x$ and $G_y$ generate rotations about the $x$- and $y$-axes, respectively. This means that $exp(theta G_x)$ is a rotation through angle $theta$ about the $x$-axis, and $exp(phi G_y)$ is a rotation through angle $phi$ about the $y$-axis. Those rotations don't commute with each other, so $G_x$ and $G_y$ must not commute with each other, either.
When the linked website (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/InfinitesimalRotation.html) talks about the "commutativity of infinitesimal transformations," it means that if the angles $theta$ and $phi$ both have infinitesimal magnitude $epsilonll 1$, then the rotations $exp(theta G_x)$ and $exp(phi G_y)$ commute with each other to first order in $epsilon$. This is true even though the generators $G_x$ and $G_y$ don't commute with each other, because the terms in the composite rotation $exp(theta G_x)exp(phi G_y)$ that involve products of $G_x$ and $G_y$ are of order $epsilon^2llepsilon$, so the non-commutativity of the generators $G_x$ and $G_y$ doesn't affect things at first order in $epsilon$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I'll use ordinary rotations as an example. The same reasoning applies for other Lorentz transformations, too.
Suppose that $G_x$ and $G_y$ generate rotations about the $x$- and $y$-axes, respectively. This means that $exp(theta G_x)$ is a rotation through angle $theta$ about the $x$-axis, and $exp(phi G_y)$ is a rotation through angle $phi$ about the $y$-axis. Those rotations don't commute with each other, so $G_x$ and $G_y$ must not commute with each other, either.
When the linked website (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/InfinitesimalRotation.html) talks about the "commutativity of infinitesimal transformations," it means that if the angles $theta$ and $phi$ both have infinitesimal magnitude $epsilonll 1$, then the rotations $exp(theta G_x)$ and $exp(phi G_y)$ commute with each other to first order in $epsilon$. This is true even though the generators $G_x$ and $G_y$ don't commute with each other, because the terms in the composite rotation $exp(theta G_x)exp(phi G_y)$ that involve products of $G_x$ and $G_y$ are of order $epsilon^2llepsilon$, so the non-commutativity of the generators $G_x$ and $G_y$ doesn't affect things at first order in $epsilon$.
$endgroup$
I'll use ordinary rotations as an example. The same reasoning applies for other Lorentz transformations, too.
Suppose that $G_x$ and $G_y$ generate rotations about the $x$- and $y$-axes, respectively. This means that $exp(theta G_x)$ is a rotation through angle $theta$ about the $x$-axis, and $exp(phi G_y)$ is a rotation through angle $phi$ about the $y$-axis. Those rotations don't commute with each other, so $G_x$ and $G_y$ must not commute with each other, either.
When the linked website (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/InfinitesimalRotation.html) talks about the "commutativity of infinitesimal transformations," it means that if the angles $theta$ and $phi$ both have infinitesimal magnitude $epsilonll 1$, then the rotations $exp(theta G_x)$ and $exp(phi G_y)$ commute with each other to first order in $epsilon$. This is true even though the generators $G_x$ and $G_y$ don't commute with each other, because the terms in the composite rotation $exp(theta G_x)exp(phi G_y)$ that involve products of $G_x$ and $G_y$ are of order $epsilon^2llepsilon$, so the non-commutativity of the generators $G_x$ and $G_y$ doesn't affect things at first order in $epsilon$.
answered yesterday
Chiral AnomalyChiral Anomaly
12.5k21542
12.5k21542
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Illustrative example: It is straightforward to prove that the Lie group
$$ SO(3)~:=~ Min rm Mat_3times 3(mathbbR) mid M^tM=mathbb1_3times 3, ~det(M)=1 $$
of 3D rotations is generated by the corresponding Lie algebra
$$ so(3)~:=~ min rm Mat_3times 3(mathbbR) mid m^t=-m $$
of real $3times 3$ antisymmetric matrices, which clearly do not all commute.Concretely notice how the mathworld.wolfram page in eqs. (2)-(5) omits the second-order terms, whose difference reveals the commutator!
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Illustrative example: It is straightforward to prove that the Lie group
$$ SO(3)~:=~ Min rm Mat_3times 3(mathbbR) mid M^tM=mathbb1_3times 3, ~det(M)=1 $$
of 3D rotations is generated by the corresponding Lie algebra
$$ so(3)~:=~ min rm Mat_3times 3(mathbbR) mid m^t=-m $$
of real $3times 3$ antisymmetric matrices, which clearly do not all commute.Concretely notice how the mathworld.wolfram page in eqs. (2)-(5) omits the second-order terms, whose difference reveals the commutator!
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Illustrative example: It is straightforward to prove that the Lie group
$$ SO(3)~:=~ Min rm Mat_3times 3(mathbbR) mid M^tM=mathbb1_3times 3, ~det(M)=1 $$
of 3D rotations is generated by the corresponding Lie algebra
$$ so(3)~:=~ min rm Mat_3times 3(mathbbR) mid m^t=-m $$
of real $3times 3$ antisymmetric matrices, which clearly do not all commute.Concretely notice how the mathworld.wolfram page in eqs. (2)-(5) omits the second-order terms, whose difference reveals the commutator!
$endgroup$
Illustrative example: It is straightforward to prove that the Lie group
$$ SO(3)~:=~ Min rm Mat_3times 3(mathbbR) mid M^tM=mathbb1_3times 3, ~det(M)=1 $$
of 3D rotations is generated by the corresponding Lie algebra
$$ so(3)~:=~ min rm Mat_3times 3(mathbbR) mid m^t=-m $$
of real $3times 3$ antisymmetric matrices, which clearly do not all commute.Concretely notice how the mathworld.wolfram page in eqs. (2)-(5) omits the second-order terms, whose difference reveals the commutator!
answered 11 hours ago
Qmechanic♦Qmechanic
106k121961227
106k121961227
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
While
beginalign
e^epsilon A e^epsilon B&=(1+epsilon A+textstylefrac12epsilon^2 A^2+ldots)(1+epsilon B+frac12epsilon^2 B^2+ldots)tag1, ,\
&= 1+ epsilon (A+B)+ frac12
epsilon^2 (A^2+AB +B^2)+ldots
endalign
we have
beginalign
e^epsilon B e^epsilon A&=(1+epsilon B+frac12epsilon^2 B^2+ldots)(1+epsilon A+textstylefrac12epsilon^2 A^2+ldots), ,tag2\
&= 1+ epsilon (B+A)+ frac12
epsilon^2 (A^2+BA +B^2)+ldots
endalign
so:
- To order $epsilon$, the transformations are the same,
- To order $epsilon^2$ they are different.
Since the commutator $[A,B]$ involves products like $AB$ and $BA$, one must compare terms in $epsilon^2$ in (1) and (2) to see that they differ by a commutator.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
While
beginalign
e^epsilon A e^epsilon B&=(1+epsilon A+textstylefrac12epsilon^2 A^2+ldots)(1+epsilon B+frac12epsilon^2 B^2+ldots)tag1, ,\
&= 1+ epsilon (A+B)+ frac12
epsilon^2 (A^2+AB +B^2)+ldots
endalign
we have
beginalign
e^epsilon B e^epsilon A&=(1+epsilon B+frac12epsilon^2 B^2+ldots)(1+epsilon A+textstylefrac12epsilon^2 A^2+ldots), ,tag2\
&= 1+ epsilon (B+A)+ frac12
epsilon^2 (A^2+BA +B^2)+ldots
endalign
so:
- To order $epsilon$, the transformations are the same,
- To order $epsilon^2$ they are different.
Since the commutator $[A,B]$ involves products like $AB$ and $BA$, one must compare terms in $epsilon^2$ in (1) and (2) to see that they differ by a commutator.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
While
beginalign
e^epsilon A e^epsilon B&=(1+epsilon A+textstylefrac12epsilon^2 A^2+ldots)(1+epsilon B+frac12epsilon^2 B^2+ldots)tag1, ,\
&= 1+ epsilon (A+B)+ frac12
epsilon^2 (A^2+AB +B^2)+ldots
endalign
we have
beginalign
e^epsilon B e^epsilon A&=(1+epsilon B+frac12epsilon^2 B^2+ldots)(1+epsilon A+textstylefrac12epsilon^2 A^2+ldots), ,tag2\
&= 1+ epsilon (B+A)+ frac12
epsilon^2 (A^2+BA +B^2)+ldots
endalign
so:
- To order $epsilon$, the transformations are the same,
- To order $epsilon^2$ they are different.
Since the commutator $[A,B]$ involves products like $AB$ and $BA$, one must compare terms in $epsilon^2$ in (1) and (2) to see that they differ by a commutator.
$endgroup$
While
beginalign
e^epsilon A e^epsilon B&=(1+epsilon A+textstylefrac12epsilon^2 A^2+ldots)(1+epsilon B+frac12epsilon^2 B^2+ldots)tag1, ,\
&= 1+ epsilon (A+B)+ frac12
epsilon^2 (A^2+AB +B^2)+ldots
endalign
we have
beginalign
e^epsilon B e^epsilon A&=(1+epsilon B+frac12epsilon^2 B^2+ldots)(1+epsilon A+textstylefrac12epsilon^2 A^2+ldots), ,tag2\
&= 1+ epsilon (B+A)+ frac12
epsilon^2 (A^2+BA +B^2)+ldots
endalign
so:
- To order $epsilon$, the transformations are the same,
- To order $epsilon^2$ they are different.
Since the commutator $[A,B]$ involves products like $AB$ and $BA$, one must compare terms in $epsilon^2$ in (1) and (2) to see that they differ by a commutator.
answered 11 hours ago
ZeroTheHeroZeroTheHero
21.1k53364
21.1k53364
add a comment |
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Physics Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f468216%2fif-infinitesimal-transformations-commute-why-dont-the-generators-of-the-lorentz%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown