Does HR tell a hiring manager about salary negotiations? Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)How do I negotiate a salary when the offer is made via snail mail?Negotiating starting Salary, hiring manager is close-business relationshipNo more interviews - when to negotiate salary?Salary negotiations after verbal agreementbreaking salary negotiation deadlockAn employer has provided a written expression of interest which outlines salary and benefits but said that it is not a formal offer?Is it advisable to negotiate salary during job offer even after answering the salary expectation question?Negotiating Offers (Verbal Offers & General)I negotiated the base pay, but how can I do this better next time?Can I still negotiate a job offer if HR is stonewalling the department head?

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Does HR tell a hiring manager about salary negotiations?



Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)How do I negotiate a salary when the offer is made via snail mail?Negotiating starting Salary, hiring manager is close-business relationshipNo more interviews - when to negotiate salary?Salary negotiations after verbal agreementbreaking salary negotiation deadlockAn employer has provided a written expression of interest which outlines salary and benefits but said that it is not a formal offer?Is it advisable to negotiate salary during job offer even after answering the salary expectation question?Negotiating Offers (Verbal Offers & General)I negotiated the base pay, but how can I do this better next time?Can I still negotiate a job offer if HR is stonewalling the department head?



.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








14















If I was to negotiate salary for a job offer with HR, is it customary for HR to communicate this to the hiring manager?



I'm worried that it colors my relationship with the hiring manager if I accept the offer. It's an indicator of how much I want the job ("I'll work for you, but not for what you wanted to give me."). Depending on what I'm negotiating for (salary in this case, but in other cases leave, benefits, etc.) it communicates work-life priorities. All subtle but important communicators that change my relationship with the manager before I even start.










share|improve this question



















  • 3





    I don't see why they wouldn't. Why is this something you're concerned about?

    – David K
    Apr 11 at 13:49






  • 2





    Why does that matter?

    – Sourav Ghosh
    Apr 11 at 13:55






  • 2





    It colors my relationship with the hiring manager if I accept the offer. It's an indicator of how much I want the job ("I'll work for you, bit not for what you wanted to give me."). Depending on what I'm negotiating for (salary in this case, but in other cases leave, benefits, etc.) it communicates work-life priorities. All subtle but important communicators that change my relationship with the manager before I even start.

    – chessofnerd
    Apr 11 at 14:07






  • 5





    @chessofnerd That's true, but negotiating for a higher salary is an entirely normal thing to do. I'd be surprised if your relationship with your manager was affected in anything but a trivial (and therefore recoverable) way.

    – Jim Clay
    Apr 11 at 14:19

















14















If I was to negotiate salary for a job offer with HR, is it customary for HR to communicate this to the hiring manager?



I'm worried that it colors my relationship with the hiring manager if I accept the offer. It's an indicator of how much I want the job ("I'll work for you, but not for what you wanted to give me."). Depending on what I'm negotiating for (salary in this case, but in other cases leave, benefits, etc.) it communicates work-life priorities. All subtle but important communicators that change my relationship with the manager before I even start.










share|improve this question



















  • 3





    I don't see why they wouldn't. Why is this something you're concerned about?

    – David K
    Apr 11 at 13:49






  • 2





    Why does that matter?

    – Sourav Ghosh
    Apr 11 at 13:55






  • 2





    It colors my relationship with the hiring manager if I accept the offer. It's an indicator of how much I want the job ("I'll work for you, bit not for what you wanted to give me."). Depending on what I'm negotiating for (salary in this case, but in other cases leave, benefits, etc.) it communicates work-life priorities. All subtle but important communicators that change my relationship with the manager before I even start.

    – chessofnerd
    Apr 11 at 14:07






  • 5





    @chessofnerd That's true, but negotiating for a higher salary is an entirely normal thing to do. I'd be surprised if your relationship with your manager was affected in anything but a trivial (and therefore recoverable) way.

    – Jim Clay
    Apr 11 at 14:19













14












14








14


1






If I was to negotiate salary for a job offer with HR, is it customary for HR to communicate this to the hiring manager?



I'm worried that it colors my relationship with the hiring manager if I accept the offer. It's an indicator of how much I want the job ("I'll work for you, but not for what you wanted to give me."). Depending on what I'm negotiating for (salary in this case, but in other cases leave, benefits, etc.) it communicates work-life priorities. All subtle but important communicators that change my relationship with the manager before I even start.










share|improve this question
















If I was to negotiate salary for a job offer with HR, is it customary for HR to communicate this to the hiring manager?



I'm worried that it colors my relationship with the hiring manager if I accept the offer. It's an indicator of how much I want the job ("I'll work for you, but not for what you wanted to give me."). Depending on what I'm negotiating for (salary in this case, but in other cases leave, benefits, etc.) it communicates work-life priorities. All subtle but important communicators that change my relationship with the manager before I even start.







human-resources negotiation hiring






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited Apr 11 at 19:51









David K

24.7k1685126




24.7k1685126










asked Apr 11 at 13:42









chessofnerdchessofnerd

21425




21425







  • 3





    I don't see why they wouldn't. Why is this something you're concerned about?

    – David K
    Apr 11 at 13:49






  • 2





    Why does that matter?

    – Sourav Ghosh
    Apr 11 at 13:55






  • 2





    It colors my relationship with the hiring manager if I accept the offer. It's an indicator of how much I want the job ("I'll work for you, bit not for what you wanted to give me."). Depending on what I'm negotiating for (salary in this case, but in other cases leave, benefits, etc.) it communicates work-life priorities. All subtle but important communicators that change my relationship with the manager before I even start.

    – chessofnerd
    Apr 11 at 14:07






  • 5





    @chessofnerd That's true, but negotiating for a higher salary is an entirely normal thing to do. I'd be surprised if your relationship with your manager was affected in anything but a trivial (and therefore recoverable) way.

    – Jim Clay
    Apr 11 at 14:19












  • 3





    I don't see why they wouldn't. Why is this something you're concerned about?

    – David K
    Apr 11 at 13:49






  • 2





    Why does that matter?

    – Sourav Ghosh
    Apr 11 at 13:55






  • 2





    It colors my relationship with the hiring manager if I accept the offer. It's an indicator of how much I want the job ("I'll work for you, bit not for what you wanted to give me."). Depending on what I'm negotiating for (salary in this case, but in other cases leave, benefits, etc.) it communicates work-life priorities. All subtle but important communicators that change my relationship with the manager before I even start.

    – chessofnerd
    Apr 11 at 14:07






  • 5





    @chessofnerd That's true, but negotiating for a higher salary is an entirely normal thing to do. I'd be surprised if your relationship with your manager was affected in anything but a trivial (and therefore recoverable) way.

    – Jim Clay
    Apr 11 at 14:19







3




3





I don't see why they wouldn't. Why is this something you're concerned about?

– David K
Apr 11 at 13:49





I don't see why they wouldn't. Why is this something you're concerned about?

– David K
Apr 11 at 13:49




2




2





Why does that matter?

– Sourav Ghosh
Apr 11 at 13:55





Why does that matter?

– Sourav Ghosh
Apr 11 at 13:55




2




2





It colors my relationship with the hiring manager if I accept the offer. It's an indicator of how much I want the job ("I'll work for you, bit not for what you wanted to give me."). Depending on what I'm negotiating for (salary in this case, but in other cases leave, benefits, etc.) it communicates work-life priorities. All subtle but important communicators that change my relationship with the manager before I even start.

– chessofnerd
Apr 11 at 14:07





It colors my relationship with the hiring manager if I accept the offer. It's an indicator of how much I want the job ("I'll work for you, bit not for what you wanted to give me."). Depending on what I'm negotiating for (salary in this case, but in other cases leave, benefits, etc.) it communicates work-life priorities. All subtle but important communicators that change my relationship with the manager before I even start.

– chessofnerd
Apr 11 at 14:07




5




5





@chessofnerd That's true, but negotiating for a higher salary is an entirely normal thing to do. I'd be surprised if your relationship with your manager was affected in anything but a trivial (and therefore recoverable) way.

– Jim Clay
Apr 11 at 14:19





@chessofnerd That's true, but negotiating for a higher salary is an entirely normal thing to do. I'd be surprised if your relationship with your manager was affected in anything but a trivial (and therefore recoverable) way.

– Jim Clay
Apr 11 at 14:19










6 Answers
6






active

oldest

votes


















27














As answered, yes, you should assume the hiring manager is / will be aware.



In response to what you said in the comment:




It colors my relationship with the hiring manager if I accept the offer. It's an indicator of how much I want the job ("I'll work for you, bit not for what you wanted to give me.").




Most managers understand that you are accepting a job in a large part because you want or need money, and will not hold this against you. Additionally, everything that could be interpreted negatively can also be interpreted positively. For example, asking for more money can demonstrate that you have confidence in your own value.



When you ask for raises after you've accepted the job, that will also start with your manager. Are you going to hold back then so your manager doesn't think you're greedy? If you aren't willing to advocate for pay raises in your career, then you will end up underpaid. Lastly, I've never had a manager hold looking for a raise against me. Work is a business transaction and most people understand that. As long as you aren't jumping jobs every year and expecting a huge raise each time you'll probably be fine.






share|improve this answer


















  • 11





    +1 for "Most managers understand that you are accepting a job in a large part because you want or need money". You're not going to take the job for free, so...

    – BittermanAndy
    Apr 11 at 15:47


















3















If I was to negotiate salary for a job offer with HR, is it customary for HR to communicate this to the hiring manager?




Yes this is a normal hiring procedure.






share|improve this answer























  • this answer seems kinda terse, and doesn't add much to the discussion (even though you posted before other answerers)

    – aaaaaa
    Apr 11 at 22:23


















3














Yes this is normal and you want that to improve your chances.



HR normally has little latitude in negotiating salaries on their own. They are not normally qualified to evaluate whether a particular candidate is worth more than was offered. The hiring manager should be aware of what you are worth to fill the role and whether or not they are willing to go higher. If the company allows it at all, it is the hiring manager who is quite likely the person who can approve or initiate a higher salary offer.






share|improve this answer























  • +1 this. Hiring manager is the only person who knows "how much you are worth" and what will constitutes your job. I am surprised OP is discussing salary with HR at all

    – aaaaaa
    Apr 11 at 22:22


















2














Yes, it is normal for HR to communicate negotiations with the manager you will be reporting to.



One thing to consider is that the manager has a budget so they need to be aware of things that would change their budget.






share|improve this answer






























    1














    In any normal organization, that will happen. HR didn't interview you (at least, not about whether you're qualified the job you're going to do). HR can't access whether you should get paid above minimum wage.



    Unless you're going to work in an environment where there are strict rules on salary based on your job, and how long you're with the company, HR will not determine your salary. At least, not on their own. But if HR is tied to rules, there's little to negotiate.






    share|improve this answer






























      0














      Your idea what your manager thinks about your salary is totally upside down. If your salary is low, your manager will think "that person can't be as good as I thought, or they would have negotiated a higher salary. If your salary is high, your manager will think "HR must have seen that this person is worth more money", or "this person must have been good enough to get high offers elsewhere, or HR wouldn't be paying that much".






      share|improve this answer























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        6 Answers
        6






        active

        oldest

        votes








        6 Answers
        6






        active

        oldest

        votes









        active

        oldest

        votes






        active

        oldest

        votes









        27














        As answered, yes, you should assume the hiring manager is / will be aware.



        In response to what you said in the comment:




        It colors my relationship with the hiring manager if I accept the offer. It's an indicator of how much I want the job ("I'll work for you, bit not for what you wanted to give me.").




        Most managers understand that you are accepting a job in a large part because you want or need money, and will not hold this against you. Additionally, everything that could be interpreted negatively can also be interpreted positively. For example, asking for more money can demonstrate that you have confidence in your own value.



        When you ask for raises after you've accepted the job, that will also start with your manager. Are you going to hold back then so your manager doesn't think you're greedy? If you aren't willing to advocate for pay raises in your career, then you will end up underpaid. Lastly, I've never had a manager hold looking for a raise against me. Work is a business transaction and most people understand that. As long as you aren't jumping jobs every year and expecting a huge raise each time you'll probably be fine.






        share|improve this answer


















        • 11





          +1 for "Most managers understand that you are accepting a job in a large part because you want or need money". You're not going to take the job for free, so...

          – BittermanAndy
          Apr 11 at 15:47















        27














        As answered, yes, you should assume the hiring manager is / will be aware.



        In response to what you said in the comment:




        It colors my relationship with the hiring manager if I accept the offer. It's an indicator of how much I want the job ("I'll work for you, bit not for what you wanted to give me.").




        Most managers understand that you are accepting a job in a large part because you want or need money, and will not hold this against you. Additionally, everything that could be interpreted negatively can also be interpreted positively. For example, asking for more money can demonstrate that you have confidence in your own value.



        When you ask for raises after you've accepted the job, that will also start with your manager. Are you going to hold back then so your manager doesn't think you're greedy? If you aren't willing to advocate for pay raises in your career, then you will end up underpaid. Lastly, I've never had a manager hold looking for a raise against me. Work is a business transaction and most people understand that. As long as you aren't jumping jobs every year and expecting a huge raise each time you'll probably be fine.






        share|improve this answer


















        • 11





          +1 for "Most managers understand that you are accepting a job in a large part because you want or need money". You're not going to take the job for free, so...

          – BittermanAndy
          Apr 11 at 15:47













        27












        27








        27







        As answered, yes, you should assume the hiring manager is / will be aware.



        In response to what you said in the comment:




        It colors my relationship with the hiring manager if I accept the offer. It's an indicator of how much I want the job ("I'll work for you, bit not for what you wanted to give me.").




        Most managers understand that you are accepting a job in a large part because you want or need money, and will not hold this against you. Additionally, everything that could be interpreted negatively can also be interpreted positively. For example, asking for more money can demonstrate that you have confidence in your own value.



        When you ask for raises after you've accepted the job, that will also start with your manager. Are you going to hold back then so your manager doesn't think you're greedy? If you aren't willing to advocate for pay raises in your career, then you will end up underpaid. Lastly, I've never had a manager hold looking for a raise against me. Work is a business transaction and most people understand that. As long as you aren't jumping jobs every year and expecting a huge raise each time you'll probably be fine.






        share|improve this answer













        As answered, yes, you should assume the hiring manager is / will be aware.



        In response to what you said in the comment:




        It colors my relationship with the hiring manager if I accept the offer. It's an indicator of how much I want the job ("I'll work for you, bit not for what you wanted to give me.").




        Most managers understand that you are accepting a job in a large part because you want or need money, and will not hold this against you. Additionally, everything that could be interpreted negatively can also be interpreted positively. For example, asking for more money can demonstrate that you have confidence in your own value.



        When you ask for raises after you've accepted the job, that will also start with your manager. Are you going to hold back then so your manager doesn't think you're greedy? If you aren't willing to advocate for pay raises in your career, then you will end up underpaid. Lastly, I've never had a manager hold looking for a raise against me. Work is a business transaction and most people understand that. As long as you aren't jumping jobs every year and expecting a huge raise each time you'll probably be fine.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered Apr 11 at 14:23









        dbeerdbeer

        8,93161830




        8,93161830







        • 11





          +1 for "Most managers understand that you are accepting a job in a large part because you want or need money". You're not going to take the job for free, so...

          – BittermanAndy
          Apr 11 at 15:47












        • 11





          +1 for "Most managers understand that you are accepting a job in a large part because you want or need money". You're not going to take the job for free, so...

          – BittermanAndy
          Apr 11 at 15:47







        11




        11





        +1 for "Most managers understand that you are accepting a job in a large part because you want or need money". You're not going to take the job for free, so...

        – BittermanAndy
        Apr 11 at 15:47





        +1 for "Most managers understand that you are accepting a job in a large part because you want or need money". You're not going to take the job for free, so...

        – BittermanAndy
        Apr 11 at 15:47













        3















        If I was to negotiate salary for a job offer with HR, is it customary for HR to communicate this to the hiring manager?




        Yes this is a normal hiring procedure.






        share|improve this answer























        • this answer seems kinda terse, and doesn't add much to the discussion (even though you posted before other answerers)

          – aaaaaa
          Apr 11 at 22:23















        3















        If I was to negotiate salary for a job offer with HR, is it customary for HR to communicate this to the hiring manager?




        Yes this is a normal hiring procedure.






        share|improve this answer























        • this answer seems kinda terse, and doesn't add much to the discussion (even though you posted before other answerers)

          – aaaaaa
          Apr 11 at 22:23













        3












        3








        3








        If I was to negotiate salary for a job offer with HR, is it customary for HR to communicate this to the hiring manager?




        Yes this is a normal hiring procedure.






        share|improve this answer














        If I was to negotiate salary for a job offer with HR, is it customary for HR to communicate this to the hiring manager?




        Yes this is a normal hiring procedure.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered Apr 11 at 14:03









        sf02sf02

        11.2k72042




        11.2k72042












        • this answer seems kinda terse, and doesn't add much to the discussion (even though you posted before other answerers)

          – aaaaaa
          Apr 11 at 22:23

















        • this answer seems kinda terse, and doesn't add much to the discussion (even though you posted before other answerers)

          – aaaaaa
          Apr 11 at 22:23
















        this answer seems kinda terse, and doesn't add much to the discussion (even though you posted before other answerers)

        – aaaaaa
        Apr 11 at 22:23





        this answer seems kinda terse, and doesn't add much to the discussion (even though you posted before other answerers)

        – aaaaaa
        Apr 11 at 22:23











        3














        Yes this is normal and you want that to improve your chances.



        HR normally has little latitude in negotiating salaries on their own. They are not normally qualified to evaluate whether a particular candidate is worth more than was offered. The hiring manager should be aware of what you are worth to fill the role and whether or not they are willing to go higher. If the company allows it at all, it is the hiring manager who is quite likely the person who can approve or initiate a higher salary offer.






        share|improve this answer























        • +1 this. Hiring manager is the only person who knows "how much you are worth" and what will constitutes your job. I am surprised OP is discussing salary with HR at all

          – aaaaaa
          Apr 11 at 22:22















        3














        Yes this is normal and you want that to improve your chances.



        HR normally has little latitude in negotiating salaries on their own. They are not normally qualified to evaluate whether a particular candidate is worth more than was offered. The hiring manager should be aware of what you are worth to fill the role and whether or not they are willing to go higher. If the company allows it at all, it is the hiring manager who is quite likely the person who can approve or initiate a higher salary offer.






        share|improve this answer























        • +1 this. Hiring manager is the only person who knows "how much you are worth" and what will constitutes your job. I am surprised OP is discussing salary with HR at all

          – aaaaaa
          Apr 11 at 22:22













        3












        3








        3







        Yes this is normal and you want that to improve your chances.



        HR normally has little latitude in negotiating salaries on their own. They are not normally qualified to evaluate whether a particular candidate is worth more than was offered. The hiring manager should be aware of what you are worth to fill the role and whether or not they are willing to go higher. If the company allows it at all, it is the hiring manager who is quite likely the person who can approve or initiate a higher salary offer.






        share|improve this answer













        Yes this is normal and you want that to improve your chances.



        HR normally has little latitude in negotiating salaries on their own. They are not normally qualified to evaluate whether a particular candidate is worth more than was offered. The hiring manager should be aware of what you are worth to fill the role and whether or not they are willing to go higher. If the company allows it at all, it is the hiring manager who is quite likely the person who can approve or initiate a higher salary offer.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered Apr 11 at 16:18









        cdkMoosecdkMoose

        11.5k32651




        11.5k32651












        • +1 this. Hiring manager is the only person who knows "how much you are worth" and what will constitutes your job. I am surprised OP is discussing salary with HR at all

          – aaaaaa
          Apr 11 at 22:22

















        • +1 this. Hiring manager is the only person who knows "how much you are worth" and what will constitutes your job. I am surprised OP is discussing salary with HR at all

          – aaaaaa
          Apr 11 at 22:22
















        +1 this. Hiring manager is the only person who knows "how much you are worth" and what will constitutes your job. I am surprised OP is discussing salary with HR at all

        – aaaaaa
        Apr 11 at 22:22





        +1 this. Hiring manager is the only person who knows "how much you are worth" and what will constitutes your job. I am surprised OP is discussing salary with HR at all

        – aaaaaa
        Apr 11 at 22:22











        2














        Yes, it is normal for HR to communicate negotiations with the manager you will be reporting to.



        One thing to consider is that the manager has a budget so they need to be aware of things that would change their budget.






        share|improve this answer



























          2














          Yes, it is normal for HR to communicate negotiations with the manager you will be reporting to.



          One thing to consider is that the manager has a budget so they need to be aware of things that would change their budget.






          share|improve this answer

























            2












            2








            2







            Yes, it is normal for HR to communicate negotiations with the manager you will be reporting to.



            One thing to consider is that the manager has a budget so they need to be aware of things that would change their budget.






            share|improve this answer













            Yes, it is normal for HR to communicate negotiations with the manager you will be reporting to.



            One thing to consider is that the manager has a budget so they need to be aware of things that would change their budget.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered Apr 11 at 14:33









            IDrinkandIKnowThingsIDrinkandIKnowThings

            45.2k16102196




            45.2k16102196





















                1














                In any normal organization, that will happen. HR didn't interview you (at least, not about whether you're qualified the job you're going to do). HR can't access whether you should get paid above minimum wage.



                Unless you're going to work in an environment where there are strict rules on salary based on your job, and how long you're with the company, HR will not determine your salary. At least, not on their own. But if HR is tied to rules, there's little to negotiate.






                share|improve this answer



























                  1














                  In any normal organization, that will happen. HR didn't interview you (at least, not about whether you're qualified the job you're going to do). HR can't access whether you should get paid above minimum wage.



                  Unless you're going to work in an environment where there are strict rules on salary based on your job, and how long you're with the company, HR will not determine your salary. At least, not on their own. But if HR is tied to rules, there's little to negotiate.






                  share|improve this answer

























                    1












                    1








                    1







                    In any normal organization, that will happen. HR didn't interview you (at least, not about whether you're qualified the job you're going to do). HR can't access whether you should get paid above minimum wage.



                    Unless you're going to work in an environment where there are strict rules on salary based on your job, and how long you're with the company, HR will not determine your salary. At least, not on their own. But if HR is tied to rules, there's little to negotiate.






                    share|improve this answer













                    In any normal organization, that will happen. HR didn't interview you (at least, not about whether you're qualified the job you're going to do). HR can't access whether you should get paid above minimum wage.



                    Unless you're going to work in an environment where there are strict rules on salary based on your job, and how long you're with the company, HR will not determine your salary. At least, not on their own. But if HR is tied to rules, there's little to negotiate.







                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered Apr 12 at 13:29









                    AbigailAbigail

                    4,85021124




                    4,85021124





















                        0














                        Your idea what your manager thinks about your salary is totally upside down. If your salary is low, your manager will think "that person can't be as good as I thought, or they would have negotiated a higher salary. If your salary is high, your manager will think "HR must have seen that this person is worth more money", or "this person must have been good enough to get high offers elsewhere, or HR wouldn't be paying that much".






                        share|improve this answer



























                          0














                          Your idea what your manager thinks about your salary is totally upside down. If your salary is low, your manager will think "that person can't be as good as I thought, or they would have negotiated a higher salary. If your salary is high, your manager will think "HR must have seen that this person is worth more money", or "this person must have been good enough to get high offers elsewhere, or HR wouldn't be paying that much".






                          share|improve this answer

























                            0












                            0








                            0







                            Your idea what your manager thinks about your salary is totally upside down. If your salary is low, your manager will think "that person can't be as good as I thought, or they would have negotiated a higher salary. If your salary is high, your manager will think "HR must have seen that this person is worth more money", or "this person must have been good enough to get high offers elsewhere, or HR wouldn't be paying that much".






                            share|improve this answer













                            Your idea what your manager thinks about your salary is totally upside down. If your salary is low, your manager will think "that person can't be as good as I thought, or they would have negotiated a higher salary. If your salary is high, your manager will think "HR must have seen that this person is worth more money", or "this person must have been good enough to get high offers elsewhere, or HR wouldn't be paying that much".







                            share|improve this answer












                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer










                            answered Apr 11 at 21:59









                            gnasher729gnasher729

                            92k42163288




                            92k42163288



























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