Gödel's incompleteness theorems - what are the religious implications?Why did Gödel believe that there was a conspiracy to suppress Leibniz's works?What are the philosophical implications of Gödel's First Incompleteness Theorem?Did Russell understand Gödel's incompleteness theorems?Relation of Gödel's incompleteness theorems and Karl Popper falsificationGödel's ontological proof and the incompleteness theoremAre there any work around after Godel's incompleteness theorems?What sources discuss Russell's response to Gödel's incompleteness theorems?Do Gödel's incompleteness theorems have any consequences for epistemology?Can Gödel's incompleteness theorems be applied to ethics?Poignancy because of Gödel's theorems - why?Gödel's Incompleteness Theorems and Implications for Science

Is "remove commented out code" correct English?

intersection of two sorted vectors in C++

How badly should I try to prevent a user from XSSing themselves?

Is it unprofessional to ask if a job posting on GlassDoor is real?

How to take photos in burst mode, without vibration?

I Accidentally Deleted a Stock Terminal Theme

Can I ask the recruiters in my resume to put the reason why I am rejected?

Could gravitational lensing be used to protect a spaceship from a laser?

Twin primes whose sum is a cube

Forgetting the musical notes while performing in concert

Did Shadowfax go to Valinor?

What exploit are these user agents trying to use?

What reasons are there for a Capitalist to oppose a 100% inheritance tax?

Today is the Center

prove that the matrix A is diagonalizable

SSH "lag" in LAN on some machines, mixed distros

Were any external disk drives stacked vertically?

How to draw the figure with four pentagons?

Why is Collection not simply treated as Collection<?>

Python: return float 1.0 as int 1 but float 1.5 as float 1.5

Does casting Light, or a similar spell, have any effect when the caster is swallowed by a monster?

Reserved de-dupe rules

Etiquette around loan refinance - decision is going to cost first broker a lot of money

Is it possible to create light that imparts a greater proportion of its energy as momentum rather than heat?



Gödel's incompleteness theorems - what are the religious implications?


Why did Gödel believe that there was a conspiracy to suppress Leibniz's works?What are the philosophical implications of Gödel's First Incompleteness Theorem?Did Russell understand Gödel's incompleteness theorems?Relation of Gödel's incompleteness theorems and Karl Popper falsificationGödel's ontological proof and the incompleteness theoremAre there any work around after Godel's incompleteness theorems?What sources discuss Russell's response to Gödel's incompleteness theorems?Do Gödel's incompleteness theorems have any consequences for epistemology?Can Gödel's incompleteness theorems be applied to ethics?Poignancy because of Gödel's theorems - why?Gödel's Incompleteness Theorems and Implications for Science













4















Apparently Kurt Gödel believed that his incompleteness theorems have some kind of religious implications. Despite Gödel's belief in a personal God, this was still somewhat surprising to me. Discussions and theories about weird (i.e. outside of mathematics) consequences of his theorems are all over the internet, and are often labeled as misunderstandings or "crank" interpretations of his work. But Gödel himself seemed to think that there are indeed legitimate applications of his work to religion.



I recall reading the quote below a while ago. My memory is a bit fuzzy, but I believe it was in response to Kurt Gödel having heard from his mother that a religious magazine or journal of some sort printed an article describing a simplified account of his incompleteness theorems for a general audience. The article then discussed some religious implications.



The actual quote from Gödel is:




It was something to be expected that sooner or later my proof will be
made useful for religion, since that is doubtless also justified in a
certain sense.




The quote can be viewed on page 125 of Reflections on Kurt Gödel
by Hao Wang, on Google Books as a preview. The context I described above is not there in the preview exactly as I remember, so I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere else (or am going insane). I do not have a copy of Wang's book either, so if anyone else wants to provide additional context beyond the preview or from other sources that is great.



My question is: What religious implications did Kurt Gödel think his incompleteness theorems have, and why?



My question is mainly about Gödel's own thoughts, but if anyone wants to speculate or "connect the dots" based on any other information they might have about Gödel's writing or thinking on the matter, this is more than welcome too.










share|improve this question






















  • I'll also be fascinated by the answers. Even mathematicians seem to fall-out on this question. It occurs to me that the question might be little different but more useful if it was asked about metaphysics rather than religion. If incompleteness has implications for religion it is because it has them for metaphysics.

    – PeterJ
    yesterday
















4















Apparently Kurt Gödel believed that his incompleteness theorems have some kind of religious implications. Despite Gödel's belief in a personal God, this was still somewhat surprising to me. Discussions and theories about weird (i.e. outside of mathematics) consequences of his theorems are all over the internet, and are often labeled as misunderstandings or "crank" interpretations of his work. But Gödel himself seemed to think that there are indeed legitimate applications of his work to religion.



I recall reading the quote below a while ago. My memory is a bit fuzzy, but I believe it was in response to Kurt Gödel having heard from his mother that a religious magazine or journal of some sort printed an article describing a simplified account of his incompleteness theorems for a general audience. The article then discussed some religious implications.



The actual quote from Gödel is:




It was something to be expected that sooner or later my proof will be
made useful for religion, since that is doubtless also justified in a
certain sense.




The quote can be viewed on page 125 of Reflections on Kurt Gödel
by Hao Wang, on Google Books as a preview. The context I described above is not there in the preview exactly as I remember, so I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere else (or am going insane). I do not have a copy of Wang's book either, so if anyone else wants to provide additional context beyond the preview or from other sources that is great.



My question is: What religious implications did Kurt Gödel think his incompleteness theorems have, and why?



My question is mainly about Gödel's own thoughts, but if anyone wants to speculate or "connect the dots" based on any other information they might have about Gödel's writing or thinking on the matter, this is more than welcome too.










share|improve this question






















  • I'll also be fascinated by the answers. Even mathematicians seem to fall-out on this question. It occurs to me that the question might be little different but more useful if it was asked about metaphysics rather than religion. If incompleteness has implications for religion it is because it has them for metaphysics.

    – PeterJ
    yesterday














4












4








4


1






Apparently Kurt Gödel believed that his incompleteness theorems have some kind of religious implications. Despite Gödel's belief in a personal God, this was still somewhat surprising to me. Discussions and theories about weird (i.e. outside of mathematics) consequences of his theorems are all over the internet, and are often labeled as misunderstandings or "crank" interpretations of his work. But Gödel himself seemed to think that there are indeed legitimate applications of his work to religion.



I recall reading the quote below a while ago. My memory is a bit fuzzy, but I believe it was in response to Kurt Gödel having heard from his mother that a religious magazine or journal of some sort printed an article describing a simplified account of his incompleteness theorems for a general audience. The article then discussed some religious implications.



The actual quote from Gödel is:




It was something to be expected that sooner or later my proof will be
made useful for religion, since that is doubtless also justified in a
certain sense.




The quote can be viewed on page 125 of Reflections on Kurt Gödel
by Hao Wang, on Google Books as a preview. The context I described above is not there in the preview exactly as I remember, so I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere else (or am going insane). I do not have a copy of Wang's book either, so if anyone else wants to provide additional context beyond the preview or from other sources that is great.



My question is: What religious implications did Kurt Gödel think his incompleteness theorems have, and why?



My question is mainly about Gödel's own thoughts, but if anyone wants to speculate or "connect the dots" based on any other information they might have about Gödel's writing or thinking on the matter, this is more than welcome too.










share|improve this question














Apparently Kurt Gödel believed that his incompleteness theorems have some kind of religious implications. Despite Gödel's belief in a personal God, this was still somewhat surprising to me. Discussions and theories about weird (i.e. outside of mathematics) consequences of his theorems are all over the internet, and are often labeled as misunderstandings or "crank" interpretations of his work. But Gödel himself seemed to think that there are indeed legitimate applications of his work to religion.



I recall reading the quote below a while ago. My memory is a bit fuzzy, but I believe it was in response to Kurt Gödel having heard from his mother that a religious magazine or journal of some sort printed an article describing a simplified account of his incompleteness theorems for a general audience. The article then discussed some religious implications.



The actual quote from Gödel is:




It was something to be expected that sooner or later my proof will be
made useful for religion, since that is doubtless also justified in a
certain sense.




The quote can be viewed on page 125 of Reflections on Kurt Gödel
by Hao Wang, on Google Books as a preview. The context I described above is not there in the preview exactly as I remember, so I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere else (or am going insane). I do not have a copy of Wang's book either, so if anyone else wants to provide additional context beyond the preview or from other sources that is great.



My question is: What religious implications did Kurt Gödel think his incompleteness theorems have, and why?



My question is mainly about Gödel's own thoughts, but if anyone wants to speculate or "connect the dots" based on any other information they might have about Gödel's writing or thinking on the matter, this is more than welcome too.







logic theology philosophy-of-religion goedel






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked Apr 1 at 19:56









AdamAdam

4558




4558












  • I'll also be fascinated by the answers. Even mathematicians seem to fall-out on this question. It occurs to me that the question might be little different but more useful if it was asked about metaphysics rather than religion. If incompleteness has implications for religion it is because it has them for metaphysics.

    – PeterJ
    yesterday


















  • I'll also be fascinated by the answers. Even mathematicians seem to fall-out on this question. It occurs to me that the question might be little different but more useful if it was asked about metaphysics rather than religion. If incompleteness has implications for religion it is because it has them for metaphysics.

    – PeterJ
    yesterday

















I'll also be fascinated by the answers. Even mathematicians seem to fall-out on this question. It occurs to me that the question might be little different but more useful if it was asked about metaphysics rather than religion. If incompleteness has implications for religion it is because it has them for metaphysics.

– PeterJ
yesterday






I'll also be fascinated by the answers. Even mathematicians seem to fall-out on this question. It occurs to me that the question might be little different but more useful if it was asked about metaphysics rather than religion. If incompleteness has implications for religion it is because it has them for metaphysics.

– PeterJ
yesterday











1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















7














Gödel's theism is discussed by Franzen in Gödel’s Theorem: An Incomplete Guideto Its Use and Abuse. He penned a version of the ontological argument, and in 1961 ranked the worldviews “according to the degree and the manner of their affinity to or, respectively, turning away from metaphysics (or religion)... Skepticism, materialism, and positivism stand on one side; spiritualism, idealism, and theology on the other”. Idealism "in its pantheistic form” is dismissed as as “a weakened form of theology in the proper sense”. Nonetheless, he did not attempt to draw theistic conclusions from the incompleteness theorem:




"Gödel sometimes described himself as a theist and believed in the possibility
of a “rational theology,” although he did not belong to any church. In
[Wang 87] he is quoted as remarking that “I believe that there is much
more reason in religion, though not in the churches, that one commonly
believes...” Among his unpublished papers was a version of St. Anselm’s ontological proof of the existence of God. More precisely, the conclusion of the argument is that there is a God-like individual, where x is defined to be God-like if every
essential property of x is positive and x has every positive property as an
essential property. As this explanation of “God-like” should make clear,
Godel’s idea of a rational theology was not of an evangelical character,
and Oskar Morgenstern relates ([Dawson 97, p. 237]) that he hesitated to
publish the proof “for fear that a belief in God might be ascribed to him,
whereas, he said, it was undertaken as a purely logical investigation, to
demonstrate that such a proof could be carried out on the basis of accepted
principles of formal logic.” Although Gödel was thus not at all averse to theological reasoning, he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions from the incompleteness theorem.
"




This did not stop others from doing just that, or even ascribing it to Gödel. Much of it is also discussed by Franzen: there can be no "theory of everything", existence of truths which can not be mechanically derived imply the existence of God, for ultimate truth is beyond reason, methodology of science cannot be based upon science only, scientists must rely on faith as much as non-scientists, finite beings can never answer all the questions they seek after, etc., etc. Related, although not exatly theological, is the Penrose-Lucas argument that "consciousness" surpasses Turing machines. For a recent sampler, see e.g. Goldman's God of Mathematicians:




"At twenty-five he ruined the positivist hope of making mathematics into a self-contained formal system with his incompleteness theorems, implying, as he noted, that machines never will be able to think, and computer algorithms never will replace intuition. To Gödel this implies that we cannot give a credible account of reality without God.



[...] Whether or not we believe, as did Gödel, in Leibniz’s God, we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel’s critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes.




Other attempted drawings of implications suffer from similar reasoning by loose association, they are not so much implications as vague analogies. And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's), it is true that Gödel was quite preoccupied with Leibniz himself, see Why did Gödel believe that there was a conspiracy to suppress Leibniz's works? He even told Hao Wang:"My theory is a monadology with a central monad [namely God]. It is like the monadology by Leibniz in its general structure". Unfortunately, Gödel's surviving writings on this theory, and theology generally, are very scarce. His notes on philosophy, known as Max Phil (Maximen Philosophie), occasionally touch on theological issues, Ternullo in Gödel’s Cantorianism discusses Gödel’s views of the "absolute infinite", which Cantor associated with God.






share|improve this answer




















  • 2





    Thank you. Given that "he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions" together with my quote of him above, it seems that Godel may have been open (and even welcome) to theological implications, but he never actually tried to work out any himself. Personally I think it's a shame that Godel didn't (as far as I could tell) ever publish a "mature" philosophy of religion. Most of what I could find (on the web anyways) about Godel's theistic worldview, besides his ontological argument, are cryptic fragments and informal letters to his mother about his thoughts on an afterlife.

    – Adam
    Apr 1 at 22:49











  • Another thing. When you wrote: "And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's)", are you referring to the theistic personalist vs. the classical theist conception of God?

    – Adam
    Apr 1 at 22:53






  • 1





    @Adam I am not sure we have enough information to decide what Gödel's God was. He did say to Wang “My theory is a monadology with a central monad [namely God]. It is like the monadology by Leibniz in its general structure”. His notes, named Max Phil, allude to "rational theology". His only continuous theological text is a reworking of Anselm's argument. Ternullo tries to extract something from his Platonism and affinity to Cantor's "absolute infinite".

    – Conifold
    2 days ago












  • Thanks @Conifold for an excellent conspectus of the situation. You do mention Gödel's relation with the ontological argument. Maybe good to also put a link? (such as en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof )

    – Rusi
    2 days ago











  • @Rusi I added the link.

    – Conifold
    2 days ago











Your Answer








StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "265"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);

else
createEditor();

);

function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);



);













draft saved

draft discarded


















StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphilosophy.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f61547%2fg%25c3%25b6dels-incompleteness-theorems-what-are-the-religious-implications%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown

























1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes








1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









7














Gödel's theism is discussed by Franzen in Gödel’s Theorem: An Incomplete Guideto Its Use and Abuse. He penned a version of the ontological argument, and in 1961 ranked the worldviews “according to the degree and the manner of their affinity to or, respectively, turning away from metaphysics (or religion)... Skepticism, materialism, and positivism stand on one side; spiritualism, idealism, and theology on the other”. Idealism "in its pantheistic form” is dismissed as as “a weakened form of theology in the proper sense”. Nonetheless, he did not attempt to draw theistic conclusions from the incompleteness theorem:




"Gödel sometimes described himself as a theist and believed in the possibility
of a “rational theology,” although he did not belong to any church. In
[Wang 87] he is quoted as remarking that “I believe that there is much
more reason in religion, though not in the churches, that one commonly
believes...” Among his unpublished papers was a version of St. Anselm’s ontological proof of the existence of God. More precisely, the conclusion of the argument is that there is a God-like individual, where x is defined to be God-like if every
essential property of x is positive and x has every positive property as an
essential property. As this explanation of “God-like” should make clear,
Godel’s idea of a rational theology was not of an evangelical character,
and Oskar Morgenstern relates ([Dawson 97, p. 237]) that he hesitated to
publish the proof “for fear that a belief in God might be ascribed to him,
whereas, he said, it was undertaken as a purely logical investigation, to
demonstrate that such a proof could be carried out on the basis of accepted
principles of formal logic.” Although Gödel was thus not at all averse to theological reasoning, he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions from the incompleteness theorem.
"




This did not stop others from doing just that, or even ascribing it to Gödel. Much of it is also discussed by Franzen: there can be no "theory of everything", existence of truths which can not be mechanically derived imply the existence of God, for ultimate truth is beyond reason, methodology of science cannot be based upon science only, scientists must rely on faith as much as non-scientists, finite beings can never answer all the questions they seek after, etc., etc. Related, although not exatly theological, is the Penrose-Lucas argument that "consciousness" surpasses Turing machines. For a recent sampler, see e.g. Goldman's God of Mathematicians:




"At twenty-five he ruined the positivist hope of making mathematics into a self-contained formal system with his incompleteness theorems, implying, as he noted, that machines never will be able to think, and computer algorithms never will replace intuition. To Gödel this implies that we cannot give a credible account of reality without God.



[...] Whether or not we believe, as did Gödel, in Leibniz’s God, we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel’s critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes.




Other attempted drawings of implications suffer from similar reasoning by loose association, they are not so much implications as vague analogies. And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's), it is true that Gödel was quite preoccupied with Leibniz himself, see Why did Gödel believe that there was a conspiracy to suppress Leibniz's works? He even told Hao Wang:"My theory is a monadology with a central monad [namely God]. It is like the monadology by Leibniz in its general structure". Unfortunately, Gödel's surviving writings on this theory, and theology generally, are very scarce. His notes on philosophy, known as Max Phil (Maximen Philosophie), occasionally touch on theological issues, Ternullo in Gödel’s Cantorianism discusses Gödel’s views of the "absolute infinite", which Cantor associated with God.






share|improve this answer




















  • 2





    Thank you. Given that "he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions" together with my quote of him above, it seems that Godel may have been open (and even welcome) to theological implications, but he never actually tried to work out any himself. Personally I think it's a shame that Godel didn't (as far as I could tell) ever publish a "mature" philosophy of religion. Most of what I could find (on the web anyways) about Godel's theistic worldview, besides his ontological argument, are cryptic fragments and informal letters to his mother about his thoughts on an afterlife.

    – Adam
    Apr 1 at 22:49











  • Another thing. When you wrote: "And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's)", are you referring to the theistic personalist vs. the classical theist conception of God?

    – Adam
    Apr 1 at 22:53






  • 1





    @Adam I am not sure we have enough information to decide what Gödel's God was. He did say to Wang “My theory is a monadology with a central monad [namely God]. It is like the monadology by Leibniz in its general structure”. His notes, named Max Phil, allude to "rational theology". His only continuous theological text is a reworking of Anselm's argument. Ternullo tries to extract something from his Platonism and affinity to Cantor's "absolute infinite".

    – Conifold
    2 days ago












  • Thanks @Conifold for an excellent conspectus of the situation. You do mention Gödel's relation with the ontological argument. Maybe good to also put a link? (such as en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof )

    – Rusi
    2 days ago











  • @Rusi I added the link.

    – Conifold
    2 days ago















7














Gödel's theism is discussed by Franzen in Gödel’s Theorem: An Incomplete Guideto Its Use and Abuse. He penned a version of the ontological argument, and in 1961 ranked the worldviews “according to the degree and the manner of their affinity to or, respectively, turning away from metaphysics (or religion)... Skepticism, materialism, and positivism stand on one side; spiritualism, idealism, and theology on the other”. Idealism "in its pantheistic form” is dismissed as as “a weakened form of theology in the proper sense”. Nonetheless, he did not attempt to draw theistic conclusions from the incompleteness theorem:




"Gödel sometimes described himself as a theist and believed in the possibility
of a “rational theology,” although he did not belong to any church. In
[Wang 87] he is quoted as remarking that “I believe that there is much
more reason in religion, though not in the churches, that one commonly
believes...” Among his unpublished papers was a version of St. Anselm’s ontological proof of the existence of God. More precisely, the conclusion of the argument is that there is a God-like individual, where x is defined to be God-like if every
essential property of x is positive and x has every positive property as an
essential property. As this explanation of “God-like” should make clear,
Godel’s idea of a rational theology was not of an evangelical character,
and Oskar Morgenstern relates ([Dawson 97, p. 237]) that he hesitated to
publish the proof “for fear that a belief in God might be ascribed to him,
whereas, he said, it was undertaken as a purely logical investigation, to
demonstrate that such a proof could be carried out on the basis of accepted
principles of formal logic.” Although Gödel was thus not at all averse to theological reasoning, he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions from the incompleteness theorem.
"




This did not stop others from doing just that, or even ascribing it to Gödel. Much of it is also discussed by Franzen: there can be no "theory of everything", existence of truths which can not be mechanically derived imply the existence of God, for ultimate truth is beyond reason, methodology of science cannot be based upon science only, scientists must rely on faith as much as non-scientists, finite beings can never answer all the questions they seek after, etc., etc. Related, although not exatly theological, is the Penrose-Lucas argument that "consciousness" surpasses Turing machines. For a recent sampler, see e.g. Goldman's God of Mathematicians:




"At twenty-five he ruined the positivist hope of making mathematics into a self-contained formal system with his incompleteness theorems, implying, as he noted, that machines never will be able to think, and computer algorithms never will replace intuition. To Gödel this implies that we cannot give a credible account of reality without God.



[...] Whether or not we believe, as did Gödel, in Leibniz’s God, we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel’s critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes.




Other attempted drawings of implications suffer from similar reasoning by loose association, they are not so much implications as vague analogies. And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's), it is true that Gödel was quite preoccupied with Leibniz himself, see Why did Gödel believe that there was a conspiracy to suppress Leibniz's works? He even told Hao Wang:"My theory is a monadology with a central monad [namely God]. It is like the monadology by Leibniz in its general structure". Unfortunately, Gödel's surviving writings on this theory, and theology generally, are very scarce. His notes on philosophy, known as Max Phil (Maximen Philosophie), occasionally touch on theological issues, Ternullo in Gödel’s Cantorianism discusses Gödel’s views of the "absolute infinite", which Cantor associated with God.






share|improve this answer




















  • 2





    Thank you. Given that "he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions" together with my quote of him above, it seems that Godel may have been open (and even welcome) to theological implications, but he never actually tried to work out any himself. Personally I think it's a shame that Godel didn't (as far as I could tell) ever publish a "mature" philosophy of religion. Most of what I could find (on the web anyways) about Godel's theistic worldview, besides his ontological argument, are cryptic fragments and informal letters to his mother about his thoughts on an afterlife.

    – Adam
    Apr 1 at 22:49











  • Another thing. When you wrote: "And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's)", are you referring to the theistic personalist vs. the classical theist conception of God?

    – Adam
    Apr 1 at 22:53






  • 1





    @Adam I am not sure we have enough information to decide what Gödel's God was. He did say to Wang “My theory is a monadology with a central monad [namely God]. It is like the monadology by Leibniz in its general structure”. His notes, named Max Phil, allude to "rational theology". His only continuous theological text is a reworking of Anselm's argument. Ternullo tries to extract something from his Platonism and affinity to Cantor's "absolute infinite".

    – Conifold
    2 days ago












  • Thanks @Conifold for an excellent conspectus of the situation. You do mention Gödel's relation with the ontological argument. Maybe good to also put a link? (such as en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof )

    – Rusi
    2 days ago











  • @Rusi I added the link.

    – Conifold
    2 days ago













7












7








7







Gödel's theism is discussed by Franzen in Gödel’s Theorem: An Incomplete Guideto Its Use and Abuse. He penned a version of the ontological argument, and in 1961 ranked the worldviews “according to the degree and the manner of their affinity to or, respectively, turning away from metaphysics (or religion)... Skepticism, materialism, and positivism stand on one side; spiritualism, idealism, and theology on the other”. Idealism "in its pantheistic form” is dismissed as as “a weakened form of theology in the proper sense”. Nonetheless, he did not attempt to draw theistic conclusions from the incompleteness theorem:




"Gödel sometimes described himself as a theist and believed in the possibility
of a “rational theology,” although he did not belong to any church. In
[Wang 87] he is quoted as remarking that “I believe that there is much
more reason in religion, though not in the churches, that one commonly
believes...” Among his unpublished papers was a version of St. Anselm’s ontological proof of the existence of God. More precisely, the conclusion of the argument is that there is a God-like individual, where x is defined to be God-like if every
essential property of x is positive and x has every positive property as an
essential property. As this explanation of “God-like” should make clear,
Godel’s idea of a rational theology was not of an evangelical character,
and Oskar Morgenstern relates ([Dawson 97, p. 237]) that he hesitated to
publish the proof “for fear that a belief in God might be ascribed to him,
whereas, he said, it was undertaken as a purely logical investigation, to
demonstrate that such a proof could be carried out on the basis of accepted
principles of formal logic.” Although Gödel was thus not at all averse to theological reasoning, he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions from the incompleteness theorem.
"




This did not stop others from doing just that, or even ascribing it to Gödel. Much of it is also discussed by Franzen: there can be no "theory of everything", existence of truths which can not be mechanically derived imply the existence of God, for ultimate truth is beyond reason, methodology of science cannot be based upon science only, scientists must rely on faith as much as non-scientists, finite beings can never answer all the questions they seek after, etc., etc. Related, although not exatly theological, is the Penrose-Lucas argument that "consciousness" surpasses Turing machines. For a recent sampler, see e.g. Goldman's God of Mathematicians:




"At twenty-five he ruined the positivist hope of making mathematics into a self-contained formal system with his incompleteness theorems, implying, as he noted, that machines never will be able to think, and computer algorithms never will replace intuition. To Gödel this implies that we cannot give a credible account of reality without God.



[...] Whether or not we believe, as did Gödel, in Leibniz’s God, we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel’s critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes.




Other attempted drawings of implications suffer from similar reasoning by loose association, they are not so much implications as vague analogies. And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's), it is true that Gödel was quite preoccupied with Leibniz himself, see Why did Gödel believe that there was a conspiracy to suppress Leibniz's works? He even told Hao Wang:"My theory is a monadology with a central monad [namely God]. It is like the monadology by Leibniz in its general structure". Unfortunately, Gödel's surviving writings on this theory, and theology generally, are very scarce. His notes on philosophy, known as Max Phil (Maximen Philosophie), occasionally touch on theological issues, Ternullo in Gödel’s Cantorianism discusses Gödel’s views of the "absolute infinite", which Cantor associated with God.






share|improve this answer















Gödel's theism is discussed by Franzen in Gödel’s Theorem: An Incomplete Guideto Its Use and Abuse. He penned a version of the ontological argument, and in 1961 ranked the worldviews “according to the degree and the manner of their affinity to or, respectively, turning away from metaphysics (or religion)... Skepticism, materialism, and positivism stand on one side; spiritualism, idealism, and theology on the other”. Idealism "in its pantheistic form” is dismissed as as “a weakened form of theology in the proper sense”. Nonetheless, he did not attempt to draw theistic conclusions from the incompleteness theorem:




"Gödel sometimes described himself as a theist and believed in the possibility
of a “rational theology,” although he did not belong to any church. In
[Wang 87] he is quoted as remarking that “I believe that there is much
more reason in religion, though not in the churches, that one commonly
believes...” Among his unpublished papers was a version of St. Anselm’s ontological proof of the existence of God. More precisely, the conclusion of the argument is that there is a God-like individual, where x is defined to be God-like if every
essential property of x is positive and x has every positive property as an
essential property. As this explanation of “God-like” should make clear,
Godel’s idea of a rational theology was not of an evangelical character,
and Oskar Morgenstern relates ([Dawson 97, p. 237]) that he hesitated to
publish the proof “for fear that a belief in God might be ascribed to him,
whereas, he said, it was undertaken as a purely logical investigation, to
demonstrate that such a proof could be carried out on the basis of accepted
principles of formal logic.” Although Gödel was thus not at all averse to theological reasoning, he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions from the incompleteness theorem.
"




This did not stop others from doing just that, or even ascribing it to Gödel. Much of it is also discussed by Franzen: there can be no "theory of everything", existence of truths which can not be mechanically derived imply the existence of God, for ultimate truth is beyond reason, methodology of science cannot be based upon science only, scientists must rely on faith as much as non-scientists, finite beings can never answer all the questions they seek after, etc., etc. Related, although not exatly theological, is the Penrose-Lucas argument that "consciousness" surpasses Turing machines. For a recent sampler, see e.g. Goldman's God of Mathematicians:




"At twenty-five he ruined the positivist hope of making mathematics into a self-contained formal system with his incompleteness theorems, implying, as he noted, that machines never will be able to think, and computer algorithms never will replace intuition. To Gödel this implies that we cannot give a credible account of reality without God.



[...] Whether or not we believe, as did Gödel, in Leibniz’s God, we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel’s critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes.




Other attempted drawings of implications suffer from similar reasoning by loose association, they are not so much implications as vague analogies. And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's), it is true that Gödel was quite preoccupied with Leibniz himself, see Why did Gödel believe that there was a conspiracy to suppress Leibniz's works? He even told Hao Wang:"My theory is a monadology with a central monad [namely God]. It is like the monadology by Leibniz in its general structure". Unfortunately, Gödel's surviving writings on this theory, and theology generally, are very scarce. His notes on philosophy, known as Max Phil (Maximen Philosophie), occasionally touch on theological issues, Ternullo in Gödel’s Cantorianism discusses Gödel’s views of the "absolute infinite", which Cantor associated with God.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 2 days ago

























answered Apr 1 at 21:47









ConifoldConifold

36.8k257146




36.8k257146







  • 2





    Thank you. Given that "he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions" together with my quote of him above, it seems that Godel may have been open (and even welcome) to theological implications, but he never actually tried to work out any himself. Personally I think it's a shame that Godel didn't (as far as I could tell) ever publish a "mature" philosophy of religion. Most of what I could find (on the web anyways) about Godel's theistic worldview, besides his ontological argument, are cryptic fragments and informal letters to his mother about his thoughts on an afterlife.

    – Adam
    Apr 1 at 22:49











  • Another thing. When you wrote: "And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's)", are you referring to the theistic personalist vs. the classical theist conception of God?

    – Adam
    Apr 1 at 22:53






  • 1





    @Adam I am not sure we have enough information to decide what Gödel's God was. He did say to Wang “My theory is a monadology with a central monad [namely God]. It is like the monadology by Leibniz in its general structure”. His notes, named Max Phil, allude to "rational theology". His only continuous theological text is a reworking of Anselm's argument. Ternullo tries to extract something from his Platonism and affinity to Cantor's "absolute infinite".

    – Conifold
    2 days ago












  • Thanks @Conifold for an excellent conspectus of the situation. You do mention Gödel's relation with the ontological argument. Maybe good to also put a link? (such as en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof )

    – Rusi
    2 days ago











  • @Rusi I added the link.

    – Conifold
    2 days ago












  • 2





    Thank you. Given that "he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions" together with my quote of him above, it seems that Godel may have been open (and even welcome) to theological implications, but he never actually tried to work out any himself. Personally I think it's a shame that Godel didn't (as far as I could tell) ever publish a "mature" philosophy of religion. Most of what I could find (on the web anyways) about Godel's theistic worldview, besides his ontological argument, are cryptic fragments and informal letters to his mother about his thoughts on an afterlife.

    – Adam
    Apr 1 at 22:49











  • Another thing. When you wrote: "And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's)", are you referring to the theistic personalist vs. the classical theist conception of God?

    – Adam
    Apr 1 at 22:53






  • 1





    @Adam I am not sure we have enough information to decide what Gödel's God was. He did say to Wang “My theory is a monadology with a central monad [namely God]. It is like the monadology by Leibniz in its general structure”. His notes, named Max Phil, allude to "rational theology". His only continuous theological text is a reworking of Anselm's argument. Ternullo tries to extract something from his Platonism and affinity to Cantor's "absolute infinite".

    – Conifold
    2 days ago












  • Thanks @Conifold for an excellent conspectus of the situation. You do mention Gödel's relation with the ontological argument. Maybe good to also put a link? (such as en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof )

    – Rusi
    2 days ago











  • @Rusi I added the link.

    – Conifold
    2 days ago







2




2





Thank you. Given that "he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions" together with my quote of him above, it seems that Godel may have been open (and even welcome) to theological implications, but he never actually tried to work out any himself. Personally I think it's a shame that Godel didn't (as far as I could tell) ever publish a "mature" philosophy of religion. Most of what I could find (on the web anyways) about Godel's theistic worldview, besides his ontological argument, are cryptic fragments and informal letters to his mother about his thoughts on an afterlife.

– Adam
Apr 1 at 22:49





Thank you. Given that "he did not attempt to draw any theological conclusions" together with my quote of him above, it seems that Godel may have been open (and even welcome) to theological implications, but he never actually tried to work out any himself. Personally I think it's a shame that Godel didn't (as far as I could tell) ever publish a "mature" philosophy of religion. Most of what I could find (on the web anyways) about Godel's theistic worldview, besides his ontological argument, are cryptic fragments and informal letters to his mother about his thoughts on an afterlife.

– Adam
Apr 1 at 22:49













Another thing. When you wrote: "And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's)", are you referring to the theistic personalist vs. the classical theist conception of God?

– Adam
Apr 1 at 22:53





Another thing. When you wrote: "And while it is not clear that Gödel's God was Leibniz's God exactly (as opposed to, say, Anselm's)", are you referring to the theistic personalist vs. the classical theist conception of God?

– Adam
Apr 1 at 22:53




1




1





@Adam I am not sure we have enough information to decide what Gödel's God was. He did say to Wang “My theory is a monadology with a central monad [namely God]. It is like the monadology by Leibniz in its general structure”. His notes, named Max Phil, allude to "rational theology". His only continuous theological text is a reworking of Anselm's argument. Ternullo tries to extract something from his Platonism and affinity to Cantor's "absolute infinite".

– Conifold
2 days ago






@Adam I am not sure we have enough information to decide what Gödel's God was. He did say to Wang “My theory is a monadology with a central monad [namely God]. It is like the monadology by Leibniz in its general structure”. His notes, named Max Phil, allude to "rational theology". His only continuous theological text is a reworking of Anselm's argument. Ternullo tries to extract something from his Platonism and affinity to Cantor's "absolute infinite".

– Conifold
2 days ago














Thanks @Conifold for an excellent conspectus of the situation. You do mention Gödel's relation with the ontological argument. Maybe good to also put a link? (such as en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof )

– Rusi
2 days ago





Thanks @Conifold for an excellent conspectus of the situation. You do mention Gödel's relation with the ontological argument. Maybe good to also put a link? (such as en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof )

– Rusi
2 days ago













@Rusi I added the link.

– Conifold
2 days ago





@Rusi I added the link.

– Conifold
2 days ago

















draft saved

draft discarded
















































Thanks for contributing an answer to Philosophy Stack Exchange!


  • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

But avoid


  • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

  • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




draft saved


draft discarded














StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphilosophy.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f61547%2fg%25c3%25b6dels-incompleteness-theorems-what-are-the-religious-implications%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown





















































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown

































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown







Popular posts from this blog

Bulk add to cart function issuecart vs. mini cart issue … rwd themeRedirect Add to cart button to cart pageAdd to cart issue - Magento 2.1The requested Payment Method is not available When creating an orderM2: reason add-to-cart might not function in production modeAdd to cart issue in some android devicesMagento 2 - custom price can not add to subtotal and grand total after add to cartAdd to cart codeIssue with my cart module on pdp and cart pages, just keeps spinningBulk price and quantity update using rest api

Category menu linking direct to productHow to create an new observer on the event catalog_product_save_beforePHP else: statements in addtocart.phtml - Adding conditions to the Add To Cart button on product pageAdd template to custom adminhtml buttonAdd category title to product view pageEdit layered navigation filter titles in Magento 1.9.2Have category page main menu based on current categoryProduct collection displaying wrong categoryHow Can I Customize Magento Default URL (Product URL and Category URL)Programatically add cross sell products to all products within a certain categoryHow to create custom link for category?Creating Custom 'Buy Now' button with Custom buy now link