Is there a korbon needed for conversion? [duplicate] The Next CEO of Stack OverflowParashat Shemini + ParaWhy are modern conversions valid?Essential requirements of Jewish conversionDoes our literature discuss invalidating a conversion because the convert would not put his/her lot with the Jewish people?Children of Converts and Specific halachosWhat is the most successful way to do conversion for a Gentile girl in a relationship with a Jew?Does a halachically circumcised non-Jew need Hatafat Dam when converting?What does being put in cheirem mean for you and your descendants?Can a woman converting to Judaism go to the Mikvah during her period?Questions about Conversion to Reform JudaismIs it forbidden for a noachide (Non-Jew) to be circumcised?Is it a sin to deceive one's converting Beis Din?Where to convert? Please help

Several mode to write the symbol of a vector

Are there any limitations on attacking while grappling?

How to invert MapIndexed on a ragged structure? How to construct a tree from rules?

Is micro rebar a better way to reinforce concrete than rebar?

What is the result of assigning to std::vector<T>::begin()?

How do I avoid eval and parse?

Can I run my washing machine drain line into a condensate pump so it drains better?

Is there a way to save my career from absolute disaster?

Unreliable Magic - Is it worth it?

Won the lottery - how do I keep the money?

What happened in Rome, when the western empire "fell"?

How do I reset passwords on multiple websites easily?

What is "(CFMCC)" on an ILS approach chart?

Why am I allowed to create multiple unique pointers from a single object?

What's the best way to handle refactoring a big file?

What exact does MIB represent in SNMP? How is it different from OID?

Calculus II Question

How do scammers retract money, while you can’t?

Preparing Indesign booklet with .psd graphics for print

How to start emacs in "nothing" mode (`fundamental-mode`)

Interfacing a button to MCU (and PC) with 50m long cable

Multiple labels for a single equation

Is there an analogue of projective spaces for proper schemes?

How did people program for Consoles with multiple CPUs?



Is there a korbon needed for conversion? [duplicate]



The Next CEO of Stack Overflow
Parashat Shemini + ParaWhy are modern conversions valid?Essential requirements of Jewish conversionDoes our literature discuss invalidating a conversion because the convert would not put his/her lot with the Jewish people?Children of Converts and Specific halachosWhat is the most successful way to do conversion for a Gentile girl in a relationship with a Jew?Does a halachically circumcised non-Jew need Hatafat Dam when converting?What does being put in cheirem mean for you and your descendants?Can a woman converting to Judaism go to the Mikvah during her period?Questions about Conversion to Reform JudaismIs it forbidden for a noachide (Non-Jew) to be circumcised?Is it a sin to deceive one's converting Beis Din?Where to convert? Please help










5
















This question already has an answer here:



  • Why are modern conversions valid?

    2 answers



A Noahide teacher told a friend, who's a convert, that he's not really Jewish because one who converts has to bring a korbon thus he's not Jewish... he asked me regarding this topic but I personally never heard of such thing. Is there a korbon needed for conversion?










share|improve this question















marked as duplicate by DonielF, Y     e     z, mbloch, WAF, Salmononius2 yesterday


This question has been asked before and already has an answer. If those answers do not fully address your question, please ask a new question.


















  • related judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/29606/…

    – rosends
    2 days ago















5
















This question already has an answer here:



  • Why are modern conversions valid?

    2 answers



A Noahide teacher told a friend, who's a convert, that he's not really Jewish because one who converts has to bring a korbon thus he's not Jewish... he asked me regarding this topic but I personally never heard of such thing. Is there a korbon needed for conversion?










share|improve this question















marked as duplicate by DonielF, Y     e     z, mbloch, WAF, Salmononius2 yesterday


This question has been asked before and already has an answer. If those answers do not fully address your question, please ask a new question.


















  • related judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/29606/…

    – rosends
    2 days ago













5












5








5









This question already has an answer here:



  • Why are modern conversions valid?

    2 answers



A Noahide teacher told a friend, who's a convert, that he's not really Jewish because one who converts has to bring a korbon thus he's not Jewish... he asked me regarding this topic but I personally never heard of such thing. Is there a korbon needed for conversion?










share|improve this question

















This question already has an answer here:



  • Why are modern conversions valid?

    2 answers



A Noahide teacher told a friend, who's a convert, that he's not really Jewish because one who converts has to bring a korbon thus he's not Jewish... he asked me regarding this topic but I personally never heard of such thing. Is there a korbon needed for conversion?





This question already has an answer here:



  • Why are modern conversions valid?

    2 answers







halacha conversion-to-judaism korban






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 2 days ago









DonielF

16.4k12586




16.4k12586










asked 2 days ago









Elchanan Ben AvrohomElchanan Ben Avrohom

463




463




marked as duplicate by DonielF, Y     e     z, mbloch, WAF, Salmononius2 yesterday


This question has been asked before and already has an answer. If those answers do not fully address your question, please ask a new question.









marked as duplicate by DonielF, Y     e     z, mbloch, WAF, Salmononius2 yesterday


This question has been asked before and already has an answer. If those answers do not fully address your question, please ask a new question.














  • related judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/29606/…

    – rosends
    2 days ago

















  • related judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/29606/…

    – rosends
    2 days ago
















related judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/29606/…

– rosends
2 days ago





related judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/29606/…

– rosends
2 days ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















6














Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Laws of Forbidden Relationships 13:4-5




וכן לדורות, כשירצה הגוי להיכנס לברית, ולהסתופף תחת כנפי השכינה, ויקבל עליו עול תורה--צריך מילה, וטבילה, והרצאת קרבן; ואם נקבה היא, טבילה וקרבן: שנאמר "ככם כגר" (במדבר טו,טו)--מה אתם במילה וטבילה והרצאת קרבן, אף הגר לדורות במילה וטבילה והרצאת קרבן.‏



ומה הוא קרבן הגר--עולת בהמה, או שתי תורים או שני בני יונה, ושניהם עולה. ובזמן הזה שאין שם קרבן, צריך מילה וטבילה; וכשייבנה המקדש, יביא קרבנו



Similarly, for [all] future generations, when a gentile desires to enter into the covenant, take shelter under the wings of the Divine presence, and accept the yoke of the Torah, he must undergo circumcision, immersion, and the offering of a sacrifice. A woman [who converts] must undergo immersion and bring a sacrifice, as [Numbers 15:15] states: "As it is for you, so shall it be for the convert." Just as you [entered the covenant] with circumcision, immersion, and the offering of a sacrifice; so, too, for future generations, a convert must undergo circumcision, immersion, and must bring a sacrifice

What is the sacrifice that a convert [is required to bring]? A burnt offering of an animal or two turtle-doves or two fledging doves. Both of [the doves] must be brought as burnt offerings. In the present age, when there are no sacrifices, [a convert] must undergo circumcision and immersion. When the Temple is rebuilt, he must bring a sacrifice.




Laws of Lacking Atonement 1:1-2




ארבעה הן הנקראין מחוסרי כפרה--הזבה, והיולדת, והזב, והמצורע. ולמה נקראו מחוסרי כפרה: שכל אחד מהן--אף על פי שטהר מטומאתו, וטבל, והעריב שמשו--עדיין הוא חסר, ולא גמרה טהרתו כדי לאכול בקודשים עד שיביא קרבנו; וקודם שיביא כפרתו, אסור הוא לאכול בקודשים, כמו שביארנו בפסולי המוקדשין.



גר שמל וטבל, ועדיין לא הביא קרבנו--אף על פי שהוא אסור לאכול בקודשים עד שיביא קרבנו, אינו ממחוסרי כפרה: שקרבנו עיכבו להיות גר גמור, ולהיות ככל כשרי ישראל; ומפני זה אינו אוכל בקודשים, שעדיין לא נעשה ככשרי ישראל. וכיון שיביא כפרתו, וייעשה ישראל כשר--אוכל בקודשים. הביא פרידה אחת בשחרית, אוכל בקודשים לערב; ויביא פרידה שנייה--שקרבנו של גר עולת בהמה, או שני בני יונה או שתי תורים, ושניהן עולה, כמו שביארנו במעשה הקרבנות.‏



There are four individuals who are referred to as "requiring atonement": a zavah, a woman after childbirth, a zav, and a person afflicted by tzara'at. Why are they referred to as "requiring atonement"? Because even after each one of them has become pure from the condition that caused his impurity, he has immersed in a mikveh, and the day of the immersion has passed, the person's status is still lacking. His attainment of purity is not complete to the extent that he may partake of sacrificial foods until he brings the sacrifice required of him. Before he brings this sacrifice, he is forbidden to partake of sacrificial food as explained in Hilchot Pesulei HaMukdashim.

When a convert becomes circumcised, but has not brought his sacrifice, although he is forbidden to partake of sacrificial food until he brings his sacrifice, he is not considered as one requiring in atonement. It is merely that failing to bring his sacrifice prevents him from being a complete convert and being from the full-fledged members of the Jewish people. Accordingly, he may not partake of sacrificial foods, because he has not become a full-fledged member of the Jewish people. Once he brings his sacrifice and becomes a full-fledged member of the Jewish people, he may partake of sacrificial foods in the evening.







share|improve this answer























  • So, he's not really Jewish?

    – Y     e     z
    2 days ago











  • @Yez that's not a sufficiently well defined term for me to express a definite opinion about

    – Double AA
    2 days ago







  • 1





    So VTC as unclear?

    – Y     e     z
    2 days ago


















3














Mishna Kretot 2.1:




רַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר בֶּן יַעֲקֹב אוֹמֵר, גֵּר, מְחֻסַּר כַּפָּרָה עַד שֶׁיִּזָּרֵק עָלָיו הַדָּם



Rabbi Eliezer ben Yaakov says: A convert [has the status of] a Mechusar Kapparah until the blood has been sprinkled [on the altar] for him




Bartenura:




ותנא קמא סבר, גר כיון שמל וטבל מותר לאכול בקדשים, ואין קרבן מעכבו אלא מלבוא בקהל, הלכך לא חשיב ליה בכלל מחוסרי כפרה



There is a Machloket if Ger is can eat Korban. Rabbi Eliezer Ben Yaacov indeed thinks that he cannot before he makes his Korban (two Olot Haof) (see Tosfot Yom Tov), but the first Tana of the Mishna did not aggree , and did not count him in the list. The first Tana ruled that Convert can eat Korbanot after circumcision and Mikve (some mefarshim discusse this opinion of Bartenura and Rambam in comment of Mishnayot, Beer Sheva, Aruch Laner, Rambam in Mishne Torah), but he cannot marry a Jewish woman until he makes his Korban Ola.




Melechet Shlomo (see Gemara 8b-9a):




פירש הקונטריס ואסור לאכול בקדשים ופוסל אשה בביאתו לכהונה ורבנן נמי אית להו הכי אלא לא חשבי ליה בהדי אינך משום דל"ד להו דזה מחוסר אף לבוא בקהל מה שאין כן באינך. גיליון. ורבי דדריש בברייתא בגמרא (דף ט' עמוד א) ככם כגר מה אבותיכם לא נכנסו לברית אלא במילה וטבילה והרצאת דמים אף הם הגרים לא יכנסו לברית אלא במילה וטבילה והרצאת דמים. כתב הרגמ"ה ז"ל (נמצא בגיליון הגמרא דף י' עמוד א) דרבי לית דר"א בן יעקב דלמיכל קדשים מייתי קרבן אלא קסבר דלא מייתי קרבן אלא לאכשורי נפשיה בקהל ע"כ



The Melechet Shelomo summarizes Gemara (disagree with Bartenura who says that Rabanan permit him to eat Korbanot before his own Korban), Gilayon Shita Mekubetset and Rabenu Gershom Maor Hagola. He says that Rabanan think that to marry a Jewish woman, convert needs a Korban. Rabenu Gershom Maor Hagola says that Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi in Berayta rules against Rabbi Eliezer Ben Yaakov (it's important to say because it's an exception to the rule, generally we pasken as REBY because his Mishna is "kav venaki"). Ramban too in his comment writes that the Halacha is not as R.E.B.Y.




Yachin:




וקיי"ל דבזה"ז שאין מקדש, משמל וטבל מותר בקהל [י"ד רס"ח ס"ב]




The Tiferet Israel says that nowadays, that we have no Mikdash, convert can marry a Jewish woman despite the lack of Korban. The source is in Gemara 9a.




אלא מעתה, האידנא דליכא קרבן לא נקבל גרים אמר רב אחא בר יעקב: (במדבר ט"ו) וכי יגור אתכם גר אשר בתוככם... לדורותכם




If converts need a Korban to marry a Jewish (man/woman), how can they marry with Jews nowadays? Rabbi Acha Bar Yaakov learns from the verse that when we have no Mikdash, a stranger can convert, because this Halacha to convert is permanent through generations. This Gemara is reported by Bach in Y.D 268.



In summary: You can say to your friend that indeed Teacher's words has source in Gemara, both Rabbi Eliezer Ben Yaaqov and rabbanan say that convert must make a korban to join Jewish community at the time of Bet hamikdash. However, the Halachical conclusion of Gemara is that is not relevant nowadays, a convert is 100% truely Jew despite the lack of Korban. When Bet hamikdash will come back, he will give two Olot Haof.






share|improve this answer

























  • I assume that IF the Temple is not rebuilt during the days of the convert he would bring the two olot haof at the time of the t'chiyat hameitim?

    – Elchanan Ben Avrohom
    yesterday











  • May be that in Techiat Hametim he will be no more convert.

    – kouty
    yesterday











  • But the important is that he is a true Jew, the proof is that he can marry a Jewish woman @ElchananBenAvrohom

    – kouty
    yesterday

















2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes








2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









6














Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Laws of Forbidden Relationships 13:4-5




וכן לדורות, כשירצה הגוי להיכנס לברית, ולהסתופף תחת כנפי השכינה, ויקבל עליו עול תורה--צריך מילה, וטבילה, והרצאת קרבן; ואם נקבה היא, טבילה וקרבן: שנאמר "ככם כגר" (במדבר טו,טו)--מה אתם במילה וטבילה והרצאת קרבן, אף הגר לדורות במילה וטבילה והרצאת קרבן.‏



ומה הוא קרבן הגר--עולת בהמה, או שתי תורים או שני בני יונה, ושניהם עולה. ובזמן הזה שאין שם קרבן, צריך מילה וטבילה; וכשייבנה המקדש, יביא קרבנו



Similarly, for [all] future generations, when a gentile desires to enter into the covenant, take shelter under the wings of the Divine presence, and accept the yoke of the Torah, he must undergo circumcision, immersion, and the offering of a sacrifice. A woman [who converts] must undergo immersion and bring a sacrifice, as [Numbers 15:15] states: "As it is for you, so shall it be for the convert." Just as you [entered the covenant] with circumcision, immersion, and the offering of a sacrifice; so, too, for future generations, a convert must undergo circumcision, immersion, and must bring a sacrifice

What is the sacrifice that a convert [is required to bring]? A burnt offering of an animal or two turtle-doves or two fledging doves. Both of [the doves] must be brought as burnt offerings. In the present age, when there are no sacrifices, [a convert] must undergo circumcision and immersion. When the Temple is rebuilt, he must bring a sacrifice.




Laws of Lacking Atonement 1:1-2




ארבעה הן הנקראין מחוסרי כפרה--הזבה, והיולדת, והזב, והמצורע. ולמה נקראו מחוסרי כפרה: שכל אחד מהן--אף על פי שטהר מטומאתו, וטבל, והעריב שמשו--עדיין הוא חסר, ולא גמרה טהרתו כדי לאכול בקודשים עד שיביא קרבנו; וקודם שיביא כפרתו, אסור הוא לאכול בקודשים, כמו שביארנו בפסולי המוקדשין.



גר שמל וטבל, ועדיין לא הביא קרבנו--אף על פי שהוא אסור לאכול בקודשים עד שיביא קרבנו, אינו ממחוסרי כפרה: שקרבנו עיכבו להיות גר גמור, ולהיות ככל כשרי ישראל; ומפני זה אינו אוכל בקודשים, שעדיין לא נעשה ככשרי ישראל. וכיון שיביא כפרתו, וייעשה ישראל כשר--אוכל בקודשים. הביא פרידה אחת בשחרית, אוכל בקודשים לערב; ויביא פרידה שנייה--שקרבנו של גר עולת בהמה, או שני בני יונה או שתי תורים, ושניהן עולה, כמו שביארנו במעשה הקרבנות.‏



There are four individuals who are referred to as "requiring atonement": a zavah, a woman after childbirth, a zav, and a person afflicted by tzara'at. Why are they referred to as "requiring atonement"? Because even after each one of them has become pure from the condition that caused his impurity, he has immersed in a mikveh, and the day of the immersion has passed, the person's status is still lacking. His attainment of purity is not complete to the extent that he may partake of sacrificial foods until he brings the sacrifice required of him. Before he brings this sacrifice, he is forbidden to partake of sacrificial food as explained in Hilchot Pesulei HaMukdashim.

When a convert becomes circumcised, but has not brought his sacrifice, although he is forbidden to partake of sacrificial food until he brings his sacrifice, he is not considered as one requiring in atonement. It is merely that failing to bring his sacrifice prevents him from being a complete convert and being from the full-fledged members of the Jewish people. Accordingly, he may not partake of sacrificial foods, because he has not become a full-fledged member of the Jewish people. Once he brings his sacrifice and becomes a full-fledged member of the Jewish people, he may partake of sacrificial foods in the evening.







share|improve this answer























  • So, he's not really Jewish?

    – Y     e     z
    2 days ago











  • @Yez that's not a sufficiently well defined term for me to express a definite opinion about

    – Double AA
    2 days ago







  • 1





    So VTC as unclear?

    – Y     e     z
    2 days ago















6














Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Laws of Forbidden Relationships 13:4-5




וכן לדורות, כשירצה הגוי להיכנס לברית, ולהסתופף תחת כנפי השכינה, ויקבל עליו עול תורה--צריך מילה, וטבילה, והרצאת קרבן; ואם נקבה היא, טבילה וקרבן: שנאמר "ככם כגר" (במדבר טו,טו)--מה אתם במילה וטבילה והרצאת קרבן, אף הגר לדורות במילה וטבילה והרצאת קרבן.‏



ומה הוא קרבן הגר--עולת בהמה, או שתי תורים או שני בני יונה, ושניהם עולה. ובזמן הזה שאין שם קרבן, צריך מילה וטבילה; וכשייבנה המקדש, יביא קרבנו



Similarly, for [all] future generations, when a gentile desires to enter into the covenant, take shelter under the wings of the Divine presence, and accept the yoke of the Torah, he must undergo circumcision, immersion, and the offering of a sacrifice. A woman [who converts] must undergo immersion and bring a sacrifice, as [Numbers 15:15] states: "As it is for you, so shall it be for the convert." Just as you [entered the covenant] with circumcision, immersion, and the offering of a sacrifice; so, too, for future generations, a convert must undergo circumcision, immersion, and must bring a sacrifice

What is the sacrifice that a convert [is required to bring]? A burnt offering of an animal or two turtle-doves or two fledging doves. Both of [the doves] must be brought as burnt offerings. In the present age, when there are no sacrifices, [a convert] must undergo circumcision and immersion. When the Temple is rebuilt, he must bring a sacrifice.




Laws of Lacking Atonement 1:1-2




ארבעה הן הנקראין מחוסרי כפרה--הזבה, והיולדת, והזב, והמצורע. ולמה נקראו מחוסרי כפרה: שכל אחד מהן--אף על פי שטהר מטומאתו, וטבל, והעריב שמשו--עדיין הוא חסר, ולא גמרה טהרתו כדי לאכול בקודשים עד שיביא קרבנו; וקודם שיביא כפרתו, אסור הוא לאכול בקודשים, כמו שביארנו בפסולי המוקדשין.



גר שמל וטבל, ועדיין לא הביא קרבנו--אף על פי שהוא אסור לאכול בקודשים עד שיביא קרבנו, אינו ממחוסרי כפרה: שקרבנו עיכבו להיות גר גמור, ולהיות ככל כשרי ישראל; ומפני זה אינו אוכל בקודשים, שעדיין לא נעשה ככשרי ישראל. וכיון שיביא כפרתו, וייעשה ישראל כשר--אוכל בקודשים. הביא פרידה אחת בשחרית, אוכל בקודשים לערב; ויביא פרידה שנייה--שקרבנו של גר עולת בהמה, או שני בני יונה או שתי תורים, ושניהן עולה, כמו שביארנו במעשה הקרבנות.‏



There are four individuals who are referred to as "requiring atonement": a zavah, a woman after childbirth, a zav, and a person afflicted by tzara'at. Why are they referred to as "requiring atonement"? Because even after each one of them has become pure from the condition that caused his impurity, he has immersed in a mikveh, and the day of the immersion has passed, the person's status is still lacking. His attainment of purity is not complete to the extent that he may partake of sacrificial foods until he brings the sacrifice required of him. Before he brings this sacrifice, he is forbidden to partake of sacrificial food as explained in Hilchot Pesulei HaMukdashim.

When a convert becomes circumcised, but has not brought his sacrifice, although he is forbidden to partake of sacrificial food until he brings his sacrifice, he is not considered as one requiring in atonement. It is merely that failing to bring his sacrifice prevents him from being a complete convert and being from the full-fledged members of the Jewish people. Accordingly, he may not partake of sacrificial foods, because he has not become a full-fledged member of the Jewish people. Once he brings his sacrifice and becomes a full-fledged member of the Jewish people, he may partake of sacrificial foods in the evening.







share|improve this answer























  • So, he's not really Jewish?

    – Y     e     z
    2 days ago











  • @Yez that's not a sufficiently well defined term for me to express a definite opinion about

    – Double AA
    2 days ago







  • 1





    So VTC as unclear?

    – Y     e     z
    2 days ago













6












6








6







Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Laws of Forbidden Relationships 13:4-5




וכן לדורות, כשירצה הגוי להיכנס לברית, ולהסתופף תחת כנפי השכינה, ויקבל עליו עול תורה--צריך מילה, וטבילה, והרצאת קרבן; ואם נקבה היא, טבילה וקרבן: שנאמר "ככם כגר" (במדבר טו,טו)--מה אתם במילה וטבילה והרצאת קרבן, אף הגר לדורות במילה וטבילה והרצאת קרבן.‏



ומה הוא קרבן הגר--עולת בהמה, או שתי תורים או שני בני יונה, ושניהם עולה. ובזמן הזה שאין שם קרבן, צריך מילה וטבילה; וכשייבנה המקדש, יביא קרבנו



Similarly, for [all] future generations, when a gentile desires to enter into the covenant, take shelter under the wings of the Divine presence, and accept the yoke of the Torah, he must undergo circumcision, immersion, and the offering of a sacrifice. A woman [who converts] must undergo immersion and bring a sacrifice, as [Numbers 15:15] states: "As it is for you, so shall it be for the convert." Just as you [entered the covenant] with circumcision, immersion, and the offering of a sacrifice; so, too, for future generations, a convert must undergo circumcision, immersion, and must bring a sacrifice

What is the sacrifice that a convert [is required to bring]? A burnt offering of an animal or two turtle-doves or two fledging doves. Both of [the doves] must be brought as burnt offerings. In the present age, when there are no sacrifices, [a convert] must undergo circumcision and immersion. When the Temple is rebuilt, he must bring a sacrifice.




Laws of Lacking Atonement 1:1-2




ארבעה הן הנקראין מחוסרי כפרה--הזבה, והיולדת, והזב, והמצורע. ולמה נקראו מחוסרי כפרה: שכל אחד מהן--אף על פי שטהר מטומאתו, וטבל, והעריב שמשו--עדיין הוא חסר, ולא גמרה טהרתו כדי לאכול בקודשים עד שיביא קרבנו; וקודם שיביא כפרתו, אסור הוא לאכול בקודשים, כמו שביארנו בפסולי המוקדשין.



גר שמל וטבל, ועדיין לא הביא קרבנו--אף על פי שהוא אסור לאכול בקודשים עד שיביא קרבנו, אינו ממחוסרי כפרה: שקרבנו עיכבו להיות גר גמור, ולהיות ככל כשרי ישראל; ומפני זה אינו אוכל בקודשים, שעדיין לא נעשה ככשרי ישראל. וכיון שיביא כפרתו, וייעשה ישראל כשר--אוכל בקודשים. הביא פרידה אחת בשחרית, אוכל בקודשים לערב; ויביא פרידה שנייה--שקרבנו של גר עולת בהמה, או שני בני יונה או שתי תורים, ושניהן עולה, כמו שביארנו במעשה הקרבנות.‏



There are four individuals who are referred to as "requiring atonement": a zavah, a woman after childbirth, a zav, and a person afflicted by tzara'at. Why are they referred to as "requiring atonement"? Because even after each one of them has become pure from the condition that caused his impurity, he has immersed in a mikveh, and the day of the immersion has passed, the person's status is still lacking. His attainment of purity is not complete to the extent that he may partake of sacrificial foods until he brings the sacrifice required of him. Before he brings this sacrifice, he is forbidden to partake of sacrificial food as explained in Hilchot Pesulei HaMukdashim.

When a convert becomes circumcised, but has not brought his sacrifice, although he is forbidden to partake of sacrificial food until he brings his sacrifice, he is not considered as one requiring in atonement. It is merely that failing to bring his sacrifice prevents him from being a complete convert and being from the full-fledged members of the Jewish people. Accordingly, he may not partake of sacrificial foods, because he has not become a full-fledged member of the Jewish people. Once he brings his sacrifice and becomes a full-fledged member of the Jewish people, he may partake of sacrificial foods in the evening.







share|improve this answer













Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Laws of Forbidden Relationships 13:4-5




וכן לדורות, כשירצה הגוי להיכנס לברית, ולהסתופף תחת כנפי השכינה, ויקבל עליו עול תורה--צריך מילה, וטבילה, והרצאת קרבן; ואם נקבה היא, טבילה וקרבן: שנאמר "ככם כגר" (במדבר טו,טו)--מה אתם במילה וטבילה והרצאת קרבן, אף הגר לדורות במילה וטבילה והרצאת קרבן.‏



ומה הוא קרבן הגר--עולת בהמה, או שתי תורים או שני בני יונה, ושניהם עולה. ובזמן הזה שאין שם קרבן, צריך מילה וטבילה; וכשייבנה המקדש, יביא קרבנו



Similarly, for [all] future generations, when a gentile desires to enter into the covenant, take shelter under the wings of the Divine presence, and accept the yoke of the Torah, he must undergo circumcision, immersion, and the offering of a sacrifice. A woman [who converts] must undergo immersion and bring a sacrifice, as [Numbers 15:15] states: "As it is for you, so shall it be for the convert." Just as you [entered the covenant] with circumcision, immersion, and the offering of a sacrifice; so, too, for future generations, a convert must undergo circumcision, immersion, and must bring a sacrifice

What is the sacrifice that a convert [is required to bring]? A burnt offering of an animal or two turtle-doves or two fledging doves. Both of [the doves] must be brought as burnt offerings. In the present age, when there are no sacrifices, [a convert] must undergo circumcision and immersion. When the Temple is rebuilt, he must bring a sacrifice.




Laws of Lacking Atonement 1:1-2




ארבעה הן הנקראין מחוסרי כפרה--הזבה, והיולדת, והזב, והמצורע. ולמה נקראו מחוסרי כפרה: שכל אחד מהן--אף על פי שטהר מטומאתו, וטבל, והעריב שמשו--עדיין הוא חסר, ולא גמרה טהרתו כדי לאכול בקודשים עד שיביא קרבנו; וקודם שיביא כפרתו, אסור הוא לאכול בקודשים, כמו שביארנו בפסולי המוקדשין.



גר שמל וטבל, ועדיין לא הביא קרבנו--אף על פי שהוא אסור לאכול בקודשים עד שיביא קרבנו, אינו ממחוסרי כפרה: שקרבנו עיכבו להיות גר גמור, ולהיות ככל כשרי ישראל; ומפני זה אינו אוכל בקודשים, שעדיין לא נעשה ככשרי ישראל. וכיון שיביא כפרתו, וייעשה ישראל כשר--אוכל בקודשים. הביא פרידה אחת בשחרית, אוכל בקודשים לערב; ויביא פרידה שנייה--שקרבנו של גר עולת בהמה, או שני בני יונה או שתי תורים, ושניהן עולה, כמו שביארנו במעשה הקרבנות.‏



There are four individuals who are referred to as "requiring atonement": a zavah, a woman after childbirth, a zav, and a person afflicted by tzara'at. Why are they referred to as "requiring atonement"? Because even after each one of them has become pure from the condition that caused his impurity, he has immersed in a mikveh, and the day of the immersion has passed, the person's status is still lacking. His attainment of purity is not complete to the extent that he may partake of sacrificial foods until he brings the sacrifice required of him. Before he brings this sacrifice, he is forbidden to partake of sacrificial food as explained in Hilchot Pesulei HaMukdashim.

When a convert becomes circumcised, but has not brought his sacrifice, although he is forbidden to partake of sacrificial food until he brings his sacrifice, he is not considered as one requiring in atonement. It is merely that failing to bring his sacrifice prevents him from being a complete convert and being from the full-fledged members of the Jewish people. Accordingly, he may not partake of sacrificial foods, because he has not become a full-fledged member of the Jewish people. Once he brings his sacrifice and becomes a full-fledged member of the Jewish people, he may partake of sacrificial foods in the evening.








share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 2 days ago









Double AADouble AA

78.6k6191416




78.6k6191416












  • So, he's not really Jewish?

    – Y     e     z
    2 days ago











  • @Yez that's not a sufficiently well defined term for me to express a definite opinion about

    – Double AA
    2 days ago







  • 1





    So VTC as unclear?

    – Y     e     z
    2 days ago

















  • So, he's not really Jewish?

    – Y     e     z
    2 days ago











  • @Yez that's not a sufficiently well defined term for me to express a definite opinion about

    – Double AA
    2 days ago







  • 1





    So VTC as unclear?

    – Y     e     z
    2 days ago
















So, he's not really Jewish?

– Y     e     z
2 days ago





So, he's not really Jewish?

– Y     e     z
2 days ago













@Yez that's not a sufficiently well defined term for me to express a definite opinion about

– Double AA
2 days ago






@Yez that's not a sufficiently well defined term for me to express a definite opinion about

– Double AA
2 days ago





1




1





So VTC as unclear?

– Y     e     z
2 days ago





So VTC as unclear?

– Y     e     z
2 days ago











3














Mishna Kretot 2.1:




רַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר בֶּן יַעֲקֹב אוֹמֵר, גֵּר, מְחֻסַּר כַּפָּרָה עַד שֶׁיִּזָּרֵק עָלָיו הַדָּם



Rabbi Eliezer ben Yaakov says: A convert [has the status of] a Mechusar Kapparah until the blood has been sprinkled [on the altar] for him




Bartenura:




ותנא קמא סבר, גר כיון שמל וטבל מותר לאכול בקדשים, ואין קרבן מעכבו אלא מלבוא בקהל, הלכך לא חשיב ליה בכלל מחוסרי כפרה



There is a Machloket if Ger is can eat Korban. Rabbi Eliezer Ben Yaacov indeed thinks that he cannot before he makes his Korban (two Olot Haof) (see Tosfot Yom Tov), but the first Tana of the Mishna did not aggree , and did not count him in the list. The first Tana ruled that Convert can eat Korbanot after circumcision and Mikve (some mefarshim discusse this opinion of Bartenura and Rambam in comment of Mishnayot, Beer Sheva, Aruch Laner, Rambam in Mishne Torah), but he cannot marry a Jewish woman until he makes his Korban Ola.




Melechet Shlomo (see Gemara 8b-9a):




פירש הקונטריס ואסור לאכול בקדשים ופוסל אשה בביאתו לכהונה ורבנן נמי אית להו הכי אלא לא חשבי ליה בהדי אינך משום דל"ד להו דזה מחוסר אף לבוא בקהל מה שאין כן באינך. גיליון. ורבי דדריש בברייתא בגמרא (דף ט' עמוד א) ככם כגר מה אבותיכם לא נכנסו לברית אלא במילה וטבילה והרצאת דמים אף הם הגרים לא יכנסו לברית אלא במילה וטבילה והרצאת דמים. כתב הרגמ"ה ז"ל (נמצא בגיליון הגמרא דף י' עמוד א) דרבי לית דר"א בן יעקב דלמיכל קדשים מייתי קרבן אלא קסבר דלא מייתי קרבן אלא לאכשורי נפשיה בקהל ע"כ



The Melechet Shelomo summarizes Gemara (disagree with Bartenura who says that Rabanan permit him to eat Korbanot before his own Korban), Gilayon Shita Mekubetset and Rabenu Gershom Maor Hagola. He says that Rabanan think that to marry a Jewish woman, convert needs a Korban. Rabenu Gershom Maor Hagola says that Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi in Berayta rules against Rabbi Eliezer Ben Yaakov (it's important to say because it's an exception to the rule, generally we pasken as REBY because his Mishna is "kav venaki"). Ramban too in his comment writes that the Halacha is not as R.E.B.Y.




Yachin:




וקיי"ל דבזה"ז שאין מקדש, משמל וטבל מותר בקהל [י"ד רס"ח ס"ב]




The Tiferet Israel says that nowadays, that we have no Mikdash, convert can marry a Jewish woman despite the lack of Korban. The source is in Gemara 9a.




אלא מעתה, האידנא דליכא קרבן לא נקבל גרים אמר רב אחא בר יעקב: (במדבר ט"ו) וכי יגור אתכם גר אשר בתוככם... לדורותכם




If converts need a Korban to marry a Jewish (man/woman), how can they marry with Jews nowadays? Rabbi Acha Bar Yaakov learns from the verse that when we have no Mikdash, a stranger can convert, because this Halacha to convert is permanent through generations. This Gemara is reported by Bach in Y.D 268.



In summary: You can say to your friend that indeed Teacher's words has source in Gemara, both Rabbi Eliezer Ben Yaaqov and rabbanan say that convert must make a korban to join Jewish community at the time of Bet hamikdash. However, the Halachical conclusion of Gemara is that is not relevant nowadays, a convert is 100% truely Jew despite the lack of Korban. When Bet hamikdash will come back, he will give two Olot Haof.






share|improve this answer

























  • I assume that IF the Temple is not rebuilt during the days of the convert he would bring the two olot haof at the time of the t'chiyat hameitim?

    – Elchanan Ben Avrohom
    yesterday











  • May be that in Techiat Hametim he will be no more convert.

    – kouty
    yesterday











  • But the important is that he is a true Jew, the proof is that he can marry a Jewish woman @ElchananBenAvrohom

    – kouty
    yesterday















3














Mishna Kretot 2.1:




רַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר בֶּן יַעֲקֹב אוֹמֵר, גֵּר, מְחֻסַּר כַּפָּרָה עַד שֶׁיִּזָּרֵק עָלָיו הַדָּם



Rabbi Eliezer ben Yaakov says: A convert [has the status of] a Mechusar Kapparah until the blood has been sprinkled [on the altar] for him




Bartenura:




ותנא קמא סבר, גר כיון שמל וטבל מותר לאכול בקדשים, ואין קרבן מעכבו אלא מלבוא בקהל, הלכך לא חשיב ליה בכלל מחוסרי כפרה



There is a Machloket if Ger is can eat Korban. Rabbi Eliezer Ben Yaacov indeed thinks that he cannot before he makes his Korban (two Olot Haof) (see Tosfot Yom Tov), but the first Tana of the Mishna did not aggree , and did not count him in the list. The first Tana ruled that Convert can eat Korbanot after circumcision and Mikve (some mefarshim discusse this opinion of Bartenura and Rambam in comment of Mishnayot, Beer Sheva, Aruch Laner, Rambam in Mishne Torah), but he cannot marry a Jewish woman until he makes his Korban Ola.




Melechet Shlomo (see Gemara 8b-9a):




פירש הקונטריס ואסור לאכול בקדשים ופוסל אשה בביאתו לכהונה ורבנן נמי אית להו הכי אלא לא חשבי ליה בהדי אינך משום דל"ד להו דזה מחוסר אף לבוא בקהל מה שאין כן באינך. גיליון. ורבי דדריש בברייתא בגמרא (דף ט' עמוד א) ככם כגר מה אבותיכם לא נכנסו לברית אלא במילה וטבילה והרצאת דמים אף הם הגרים לא יכנסו לברית אלא במילה וטבילה והרצאת דמים. כתב הרגמ"ה ז"ל (נמצא בגיליון הגמרא דף י' עמוד א) דרבי לית דר"א בן יעקב דלמיכל קדשים מייתי קרבן אלא קסבר דלא מייתי קרבן אלא לאכשורי נפשיה בקהל ע"כ



The Melechet Shelomo summarizes Gemara (disagree with Bartenura who says that Rabanan permit him to eat Korbanot before his own Korban), Gilayon Shita Mekubetset and Rabenu Gershom Maor Hagola. He says that Rabanan think that to marry a Jewish woman, convert needs a Korban. Rabenu Gershom Maor Hagola says that Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi in Berayta rules against Rabbi Eliezer Ben Yaakov (it's important to say because it's an exception to the rule, generally we pasken as REBY because his Mishna is "kav venaki"). Ramban too in his comment writes that the Halacha is not as R.E.B.Y.




Yachin:




וקיי"ל דבזה"ז שאין מקדש, משמל וטבל מותר בקהל [י"ד רס"ח ס"ב]




The Tiferet Israel says that nowadays, that we have no Mikdash, convert can marry a Jewish woman despite the lack of Korban. The source is in Gemara 9a.




אלא מעתה, האידנא דליכא קרבן לא נקבל גרים אמר רב אחא בר יעקב: (במדבר ט"ו) וכי יגור אתכם גר אשר בתוככם... לדורותכם




If converts need a Korban to marry a Jewish (man/woman), how can they marry with Jews nowadays? Rabbi Acha Bar Yaakov learns from the verse that when we have no Mikdash, a stranger can convert, because this Halacha to convert is permanent through generations. This Gemara is reported by Bach in Y.D 268.



In summary: You can say to your friend that indeed Teacher's words has source in Gemara, both Rabbi Eliezer Ben Yaaqov and rabbanan say that convert must make a korban to join Jewish community at the time of Bet hamikdash. However, the Halachical conclusion of Gemara is that is not relevant nowadays, a convert is 100% truely Jew despite the lack of Korban. When Bet hamikdash will come back, he will give two Olot Haof.






share|improve this answer

























  • I assume that IF the Temple is not rebuilt during the days of the convert he would bring the two olot haof at the time of the t'chiyat hameitim?

    – Elchanan Ben Avrohom
    yesterday











  • May be that in Techiat Hametim he will be no more convert.

    – kouty
    yesterday











  • But the important is that he is a true Jew, the proof is that he can marry a Jewish woman @ElchananBenAvrohom

    – kouty
    yesterday













3












3








3







Mishna Kretot 2.1:




רַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר בֶּן יַעֲקֹב אוֹמֵר, גֵּר, מְחֻסַּר כַּפָּרָה עַד שֶׁיִּזָּרֵק עָלָיו הַדָּם



Rabbi Eliezer ben Yaakov says: A convert [has the status of] a Mechusar Kapparah until the blood has been sprinkled [on the altar] for him




Bartenura:




ותנא קמא סבר, גר כיון שמל וטבל מותר לאכול בקדשים, ואין קרבן מעכבו אלא מלבוא בקהל, הלכך לא חשיב ליה בכלל מחוסרי כפרה



There is a Machloket if Ger is can eat Korban. Rabbi Eliezer Ben Yaacov indeed thinks that he cannot before he makes his Korban (two Olot Haof) (see Tosfot Yom Tov), but the first Tana of the Mishna did not aggree , and did not count him in the list. The first Tana ruled that Convert can eat Korbanot after circumcision and Mikve (some mefarshim discusse this opinion of Bartenura and Rambam in comment of Mishnayot, Beer Sheva, Aruch Laner, Rambam in Mishne Torah), but he cannot marry a Jewish woman until he makes his Korban Ola.




Melechet Shlomo (see Gemara 8b-9a):




פירש הקונטריס ואסור לאכול בקדשים ופוסל אשה בביאתו לכהונה ורבנן נמי אית להו הכי אלא לא חשבי ליה בהדי אינך משום דל"ד להו דזה מחוסר אף לבוא בקהל מה שאין כן באינך. גיליון. ורבי דדריש בברייתא בגמרא (דף ט' עמוד א) ככם כגר מה אבותיכם לא נכנסו לברית אלא במילה וטבילה והרצאת דמים אף הם הגרים לא יכנסו לברית אלא במילה וטבילה והרצאת דמים. כתב הרגמ"ה ז"ל (נמצא בגיליון הגמרא דף י' עמוד א) דרבי לית דר"א בן יעקב דלמיכל קדשים מייתי קרבן אלא קסבר דלא מייתי קרבן אלא לאכשורי נפשיה בקהל ע"כ



The Melechet Shelomo summarizes Gemara (disagree with Bartenura who says that Rabanan permit him to eat Korbanot before his own Korban), Gilayon Shita Mekubetset and Rabenu Gershom Maor Hagola. He says that Rabanan think that to marry a Jewish woman, convert needs a Korban. Rabenu Gershom Maor Hagola says that Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi in Berayta rules against Rabbi Eliezer Ben Yaakov (it's important to say because it's an exception to the rule, generally we pasken as REBY because his Mishna is "kav venaki"). Ramban too in his comment writes that the Halacha is not as R.E.B.Y.




Yachin:




וקיי"ל דבזה"ז שאין מקדש, משמל וטבל מותר בקהל [י"ד רס"ח ס"ב]




The Tiferet Israel says that nowadays, that we have no Mikdash, convert can marry a Jewish woman despite the lack of Korban. The source is in Gemara 9a.




אלא מעתה, האידנא דליכא קרבן לא נקבל גרים אמר רב אחא בר יעקב: (במדבר ט"ו) וכי יגור אתכם גר אשר בתוככם... לדורותכם




If converts need a Korban to marry a Jewish (man/woman), how can they marry with Jews nowadays? Rabbi Acha Bar Yaakov learns from the verse that when we have no Mikdash, a stranger can convert, because this Halacha to convert is permanent through generations. This Gemara is reported by Bach in Y.D 268.



In summary: You can say to your friend that indeed Teacher's words has source in Gemara, both Rabbi Eliezer Ben Yaaqov and rabbanan say that convert must make a korban to join Jewish community at the time of Bet hamikdash. However, the Halachical conclusion of Gemara is that is not relevant nowadays, a convert is 100% truely Jew despite the lack of Korban. When Bet hamikdash will come back, he will give two Olot Haof.






share|improve this answer















Mishna Kretot 2.1:




רַבִּי אֱלִיעֶזֶר בֶּן יַעֲקֹב אוֹמֵר, גֵּר, מְחֻסַּר כַּפָּרָה עַד שֶׁיִּזָּרֵק עָלָיו הַדָּם



Rabbi Eliezer ben Yaakov says: A convert [has the status of] a Mechusar Kapparah until the blood has been sprinkled [on the altar] for him




Bartenura:




ותנא קמא סבר, גר כיון שמל וטבל מותר לאכול בקדשים, ואין קרבן מעכבו אלא מלבוא בקהל, הלכך לא חשיב ליה בכלל מחוסרי כפרה



There is a Machloket if Ger is can eat Korban. Rabbi Eliezer Ben Yaacov indeed thinks that he cannot before he makes his Korban (two Olot Haof) (see Tosfot Yom Tov), but the first Tana of the Mishna did not aggree , and did not count him in the list. The first Tana ruled that Convert can eat Korbanot after circumcision and Mikve (some mefarshim discusse this opinion of Bartenura and Rambam in comment of Mishnayot, Beer Sheva, Aruch Laner, Rambam in Mishne Torah), but he cannot marry a Jewish woman until he makes his Korban Ola.




Melechet Shlomo (see Gemara 8b-9a):




פירש הקונטריס ואסור לאכול בקדשים ופוסל אשה בביאתו לכהונה ורבנן נמי אית להו הכי אלא לא חשבי ליה בהדי אינך משום דל"ד להו דזה מחוסר אף לבוא בקהל מה שאין כן באינך. גיליון. ורבי דדריש בברייתא בגמרא (דף ט' עמוד א) ככם כגר מה אבותיכם לא נכנסו לברית אלא במילה וטבילה והרצאת דמים אף הם הגרים לא יכנסו לברית אלא במילה וטבילה והרצאת דמים. כתב הרגמ"ה ז"ל (נמצא בגיליון הגמרא דף י' עמוד א) דרבי לית דר"א בן יעקב דלמיכל קדשים מייתי קרבן אלא קסבר דלא מייתי קרבן אלא לאכשורי נפשיה בקהל ע"כ



The Melechet Shelomo summarizes Gemara (disagree with Bartenura who says that Rabanan permit him to eat Korbanot before his own Korban), Gilayon Shita Mekubetset and Rabenu Gershom Maor Hagola. He says that Rabanan think that to marry a Jewish woman, convert needs a Korban. Rabenu Gershom Maor Hagola says that Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi in Berayta rules against Rabbi Eliezer Ben Yaakov (it's important to say because it's an exception to the rule, generally we pasken as REBY because his Mishna is "kav venaki"). Ramban too in his comment writes that the Halacha is not as R.E.B.Y.




Yachin:




וקיי"ל דבזה"ז שאין מקדש, משמל וטבל מותר בקהל [י"ד רס"ח ס"ב]




The Tiferet Israel says that nowadays, that we have no Mikdash, convert can marry a Jewish woman despite the lack of Korban. The source is in Gemara 9a.




אלא מעתה, האידנא דליכא קרבן לא נקבל גרים אמר רב אחא בר יעקב: (במדבר ט"ו) וכי יגור אתכם גר אשר בתוככם... לדורותכם




If converts need a Korban to marry a Jewish (man/woman), how can they marry with Jews nowadays? Rabbi Acha Bar Yaakov learns from the verse that when we have no Mikdash, a stranger can convert, because this Halacha to convert is permanent through generations. This Gemara is reported by Bach in Y.D 268.



In summary: You can say to your friend that indeed Teacher's words has source in Gemara, both Rabbi Eliezer Ben Yaaqov and rabbanan say that convert must make a korban to join Jewish community at the time of Bet hamikdash. However, the Halachical conclusion of Gemara is that is not relevant nowadays, a convert is 100% truely Jew despite the lack of Korban. When Bet hamikdash will come back, he will give two Olot Haof.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited yesterday

























answered 2 days ago









koutykouty

15.1k31846




15.1k31846












  • I assume that IF the Temple is not rebuilt during the days of the convert he would bring the two olot haof at the time of the t'chiyat hameitim?

    – Elchanan Ben Avrohom
    yesterday











  • May be that in Techiat Hametim he will be no more convert.

    – kouty
    yesterday











  • But the important is that he is a true Jew, the proof is that he can marry a Jewish woman @ElchananBenAvrohom

    – kouty
    yesterday

















  • I assume that IF the Temple is not rebuilt during the days of the convert he would bring the two olot haof at the time of the t'chiyat hameitim?

    – Elchanan Ben Avrohom
    yesterday











  • May be that in Techiat Hametim he will be no more convert.

    – kouty
    yesterday











  • But the important is that he is a true Jew, the proof is that he can marry a Jewish woman @ElchananBenAvrohom

    – kouty
    yesterday
















I assume that IF the Temple is not rebuilt during the days of the convert he would bring the two olot haof at the time of the t'chiyat hameitim?

– Elchanan Ben Avrohom
yesterday





I assume that IF the Temple is not rebuilt during the days of the convert he would bring the two olot haof at the time of the t'chiyat hameitim?

– Elchanan Ben Avrohom
yesterday













May be that in Techiat Hametim he will be no more convert.

– kouty
yesterday





May be that in Techiat Hametim he will be no more convert.

– kouty
yesterday













But the important is that he is a true Jew, the proof is that he can marry a Jewish woman @ElchananBenAvrohom

– kouty
yesterday





But the important is that he is a true Jew, the proof is that he can marry a Jewish woman @ElchananBenAvrohom

– kouty
yesterday



Popular posts from this blog

Sum ergo cogito? 1 nng

三茅街道4182Guuntc Dn precexpngmageondP