Why doesn't Gödel's incompleteness theorem apply to false statements?Decidability of the Riemann Hypothesis vs. the Goldbach ConjectureComputability viewpoint of Godel/Rosser's incompleteness theoremA naive inquiry of Godel's incompleteness--or why does mathematics need proofs of unprovability?Explanation of proof of Gödel's Second Incompleteness TheoremA qualitative, yet precise statement of Godel's incompleteness theorem?Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem — meta-reasoning “loophole”?Is it possible to deduce Godel's first incompleteness theorem from Chaitin's incompleteness theorem?Godel's incompletness theorem - proving a statement is falseWhy do we find Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem surprising?Definition of Algorithms in Gödel's incompleteness theoremsIs it possible to construct a formal system such that all interesting statements from ZFC can be proven within the system?Why does incompleteness not imply consistency?

What is the tangent at a sharp point on a curve?

Why didn’t Eve recognize the little cockroach as a living organism?

Can creatures abilities target that creature itself?

Would a primitive species be able to learn English from reading books alone?

Calculate Pi using Monte Carlo

categorizing a variable turns it from insignificant to significant

Asserting that Atheism and Theism are both faith based positions

Is there any common country to visit for persons holding UK and Schengen visas?

Relations between homogeneous polynomials

What is it called when someone votes for an option that's not their first choice?

Capacitor electron flow

Travelling in US for more than 90 days

Hashing password to increase entropy

Connection Between Knot Theory and Number Theory

Why do Radio Buttons not fill the entire outer circle?

Friend wants my recommendation but I don't want to give it to him

Why didn't Voldemort know what Grindelwald looked like?

PTIJ: Which Dr. Seuss books should one obtain?

What should be the ideal length of sentences in a blog post for ease of reading?

Reasons for having MCU pin-states default to pull-up/down out of reset

Extract substring according to regexp with sed or grep

Strange behavior in TikZ draw command

How would a solely written language work mechanically

How do you justify more code being written by following clean code practices?



Why doesn't Gödel's incompleteness theorem apply to false statements?


Decidability of the Riemann Hypothesis vs. the Goldbach ConjectureComputability viewpoint of Godel/Rosser's incompleteness theoremA naive inquiry of Godel's incompleteness--or why does mathematics need proofs of unprovability?Explanation of proof of Gödel's Second Incompleteness TheoremA qualitative, yet precise statement of Godel's incompleteness theorem?Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem — meta-reasoning “loophole”?Is it possible to deduce Godel's first incompleteness theorem from Chaitin's incompleteness theorem?Godel's incompletness theorem - proving a statement is falseWhy do we find Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem surprising?Definition of Algorithms in Gödel's incompleteness theoremsIs it possible to construct a formal system such that all interesting statements from ZFC can be proven within the system?Why does incompleteness not imply consistency?













5












$begingroup$


I've read and heard in lectures that




A way to prove that the Riemann hypothesis is true is to show that it's not provable.




The argument (informally) usually goes like




If a statement is false, then there must exist a counterexample showing its falsity.




Hence, to prove any statement is false, one must have a constructive proof.



Question: Why doesn't Godel's incompleteness theorem apply to false statements? That is, how do we know that all false statements are provably so?










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    This question seems to be based on an incorrect assumption. We have nonconstructive proofs of falsity all the time. For example "There exists a bijection between the reals and the natural" has a rather famously nonconstructive proof.
    $endgroup$
    – Q the Platypus
    17 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @QthePlatypus Do you have a reference for this "proof" ?
    $endgroup$
    – DanielV
    17 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Sorry I should have said “Has a famous proof of it’s falsity”.
    $endgroup$
    – Q the Platypus
    17 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    It is not the full story to say that a proof is non constructive, because a non constructive proof can be converted to a constructive proof just by adding assumptions. Whether a theorem is constructively established is based on whether or not you classify the assumptions as constructive, for those assumptions that would be present in a constructively organized proof. And whether an assumption is constructive is a whole other philosophical (and computational) matter.
    $endgroup$
    – DanielV
    17 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    See also math.stackexchange.com/questions/2305177/…
    $endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    16 hours ago















5












$begingroup$


I've read and heard in lectures that




A way to prove that the Riemann hypothesis is true is to show that it's not provable.




The argument (informally) usually goes like




If a statement is false, then there must exist a counterexample showing its falsity.




Hence, to prove any statement is false, one must have a constructive proof.



Question: Why doesn't Godel's incompleteness theorem apply to false statements? That is, how do we know that all false statements are provably so?










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    This question seems to be based on an incorrect assumption. We have nonconstructive proofs of falsity all the time. For example "There exists a bijection between the reals and the natural" has a rather famously nonconstructive proof.
    $endgroup$
    – Q the Platypus
    17 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @QthePlatypus Do you have a reference for this "proof" ?
    $endgroup$
    – DanielV
    17 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Sorry I should have said “Has a famous proof of it’s falsity”.
    $endgroup$
    – Q the Platypus
    17 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    It is not the full story to say that a proof is non constructive, because a non constructive proof can be converted to a constructive proof just by adding assumptions. Whether a theorem is constructively established is based on whether or not you classify the assumptions as constructive, for those assumptions that would be present in a constructively organized proof. And whether an assumption is constructive is a whole other philosophical (and computational) matter.
    $endgroup$
    – DanielV
    17 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    See also math.stackexchange.com/questions/2305177/…
    $endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    16 hours ago













5












5








5


3



$begingroup$


I've read and heard in lectures that




A way to prove that the Riemann hypothesis is true is to show that it's not provable.




The argument (informally) usually goes like




If a statement is false, then there must exist a counterexample showing its falsity.




Hence, to prove any statement is false, one must have a constructive proof.



Question: Why doesn't Godel's incompleteness theorem apply to false statements? That is, how do we know that all false statements are provably so?










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$




I've read and heard in lectures that




A way to prove that the Riemann hypothesis is true is to show that it's not provable.




The argument (informally) usually goes like




If a statement is false, then there must exist a counterexample showing its falsity.




Hence, to prove any statement is false, one must have a constructive proof.



Question: Why doesn't Godel's incompleteness theorem apply to false statements? That is, how do we know that all false statements are provably so?







logic incompleteness






share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question











share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question










asked 17 hours ago









InertialObserverInertialObserver

420211




420211







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    This question seems to be based on an incorrect assumption. We have nonconstructive proofs of falsity all the time. For example "There exists a bijection between the reals and the natural" has a rather famously nonconstructive proof.
    $endgroup$
    – Q the Platypus
    17 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @QthePlatypus Do you have a reference for this "proof" ?
    $endgroup$
    – DanielV
    17 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Sorry I should have said “Has a famous proof of it’s falsity”.
    $endgroup$
    – Q the Platypus
    17 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    It is not the full story to say that a proof is non constructive, because a non constructive proof can be converted to a constructive proof just by adding assumptions. Whether a theorem is constructively established is based on whether or not you classify the assumptions as constructive, for those assumptions that would be present in a constructively organized proof. And whether an assumption is constructive is a whole other philosophical (and computational) matter.
    $endgroup$
    – DanielV
    17 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    See also math.stackexchange.com/questions/2305177/…
    $endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    16 hours ago












  • 2




    $begingroup$
    This question seems to be based on an incorrect assumption. We have nonconstructive proofs of falsity all the time. For example "There exists a bijection between the reals and the natural" has a rather famously nonconstructive proof.
    $endgroup$
    – Q the Platypus
    17 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @QthePlatypus Do you have a reference for this "proof" ?
    $endgroup$
    – DanielV
    17 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Sorry I should have said “Has a famous proof of it’s falsity”.
    $endgroup$
    – Q the Platypus
    17 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    It is not the full story to say that a proof is non constructive, because a non constructive proof can be converted to a constructive proof just by adding assumptions. Whether a theorem is constructively established is based on whether or not you classify the assumptions as constructive, for those assumptions that would be present in a constructively organized proof. And whether an assumption is constructive is a whole other philosophical (and computational) matter.
    $endgroup$
    – DanielV
    17 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    See also math.stackexchange.com/questions/2305177/…
    $endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    16 hours ago







2




2




$begingroup$
This question seems to be based on an incorrect assumption. We have nonconstructive proofs of falsity all the time. For example "There exists a bijection between the reals and the natural" has a rather famously nonconstructive proof.
$endgroup$
– Q the Platypus
17 hours ago




$begingroup$
This question seems to be based on an incorrect assumption. We have nonconstructive proofs of falsity all the time. For example "There exists a bijection between the reals and the natural" has a rather famously nonconstructive proof.
$endgroup$
– Q the Platypus
17 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
@QthePlatypus Do you have a reference for this "proof" ?
$endgroup$
– DanielV
17 hours ago




$begingroup$
@QthePlatypus Do you have a reference for this "proof" ?
$endgroup$
– DanielV
17 hours ago












$begingroup$
Sorry I should have said “Has a famous proof of it’s falsity”.
$endgroup$
– Q the Platypus
17 hours ago




$begingroup$
Sorry I should have said “Has a famous proof of it’s falsity”.
$endgroup$
– Q the Platypus
17 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
It is not the full story to say that a proof is non constructive, because a non constructive proof can be converted to a constructive proof just by adding assumptions. Whether a theorem is constructively established is based on whether or not you classify the assumptions as constructive, for those assumptions that would be present in a constructively organized proof. And whether an assumption is constructive is a whole other philosophical (and computational) matter.
$endgroup$
– DanielV
17 hours ago




$begingroup$
It is not the full story to say that a proof is non constructive, because a non constructive proof can be converted to a constructive proof just by adding assumptions. Whether a theorem is constructively established is based on whether or not you classify the assumptions as constructive, for those assumptions that would be present in a constructively organized proof. And whether an assumption is constructive is a whole other philosophical (and computational) matter.
$endgroup$
– DanielV
17 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
See also math.stackexchange.com/questions/2305177/…
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila
16 hours ago




$begingroup$
See also math.stackexchange.com/questions/2305177/…
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila
16 hours ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















21












$begingroup$


That is, how do we know that all false statements are provably so?




This is simply wrong. There are both true and false statements that cannot be proven. What is true is that any sufficiently nice foundational system (i.e. one that has a proof verifier program and can reason about finite program runs) is $Σ_1$-complete, meaning that it proves every true $Σ_1$-sentence. Here, a $Σ_1$-sentence is an arithmetical sentence (i.e. quantifies only over $mathbbN$) that is equivalent to $∃k∈mathbbN ( Q(k) )$ for some arithmetical property $Q$ that uses only bounded quantifiers. For example, "There is an even number that is not the sum of two primes." can be expressed as a $Σ_1$-sentence. The "$Σ_1$" stands for "$1$ unbounded existential". Similarly a $Π_1$-sentence is an arithmetical sentence equivalent to one with only $1$ unbounded universal quantifier in Skolem normal form.



In general, if you have a $Π_1$-sentence $C ≡ ∀k∈mathbbN ( Q(k) )$, then $¬C$ is a $Σ_1$-sentence. Thus if $C$ is false, $¬C$ is true and hence provable in any sufficiently nice foundational system by $Σ_1$-completeness. This does not apply to all false sentences!



It turns out that non-trivially RH (Riemann Hypothesis) is equivalent to a $Π_1$-sentence, and hence by the above we know that if it is false then even PA (Peano Arithmetic) can disprove it. Also, I should add that no expert believes that it would be any easier to prove unprovability of RH over PA than to directly disprove RH, even if it is false in the first place.



Godel's incompleteness theorem has completely nothing to do with $Σ_1$-completeness. In fact, the generalized incompleteness theorem shows that any sufficiently nice foundational system (regardless of what underlying logic it uses) necessarily is either $Π_1$-incomplete or proves $0=1$. That is, if it is arithmetically consistent (i.e. does not prove $0=1$) then it also does not prove some true $Π_1$-sentence. Moreover, we can find such a sentence uniformly and explicitly (as described in the linked post).






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Thank you for explaining that this implication is non-trivial. I've had so many people act like it's obvious that if RH is false you must be able to produce a counterexample, and look at me like I'm crazy when I ask "What if the only counterexamples are non-definable numbers?"
    $endgroup$
    – MartianInvader
    4 hours ago


















5












$begingroup$

This argument doesn't show that all false statements are provably so. (That's impossible for trivial reasons: if $P$ is a true statement that's not provable, then $lnot P$ is a false statement that's not provable.) The argument shows that the Riemann hypothesis, if false, is provably so, because there would be a specific number $s$ (in the critical strip but not on the critical line) at which $zeta(s)=0$, and so there would exist a proof (show that that specific number is a zero of $zeta$).






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$








  • 6




    $begingroup$
    Note that your final claim is not obvious--even if some number is a zero of $zeta$, why must it be possible to prove that? It turns out that if such a zero exists then it can always be detected by some finite calculation, but this takes some work to prove.
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    17 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @EricWofsey I agree with you. Still I hope my answer illustrates the logic point being sought.
    $endgroup$
    – Greg Martin
    17 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    "a true statement that's not provable" does that even make sense? If it's not provable, what does "true" even mean?
    $endgroup$
    – Arthur
    12 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Arthur: I can't speak for this answer, but truth is in fact well-defined for arithmetical sentences, and (as per my answer) there is always some true arithmetical sentence that you cannot prove in your chosen foundational system.
    $endgroup$
    – user21820
    11 hours ago


















4












$begingroup$

Because if you were lucky enough to guess the counterexample, you could just check it. Note that this only works for problems where it's easy to check whether a given value is in fact a counterexample. To take a non-mathematical example, you have no hope of proving you've found a counterexample to "all people are mortal" because you'd have to verify some individual is immortal, meaning you'd have to verify nothing at all can kill them, which isn't possible.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$












    Your Answer





    StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
    return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function ()
    StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix)
    StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
    );
    );
    , "mathjax-editing");

    StackExchange.ready(function()
    var channelOptions =
    tags: "".split(" "),
    id: "69"
    ;
    initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

    StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
    // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
    if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
    StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
    createEditor();
    );

    else
    createEditor();

    );

    function createEditor()
    StackExchange.prepareEditor(
    heartbeatType: 'answer',
    autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
    convertImagesToLinks: true,
    noModals: true,
    showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
    reputationToPostImages: 10,
    bindNavPrevention: true,
    postfix: "",
    imageUploader:
    brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
    contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
    allowUrls: true
    ,
    noCode: true, onDemand: true,
    discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
    ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
    );



    );













    draft saved

    draft discarded


















    StackExchange.ready(
    function ()
    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3153739%2fwhy-doesnt-g%25c3%25b6dels-incompleteness-theorem-apply-to-false-statements%23new-answer', 'question_page');

    );

    Post as a guest















    Required, but never shown

























    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes








    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    21












    $begingroup$


    That is, how do we know that all false statements are provably so?




    This is simply wrong. There are both true and false statements that cannot be proven. What is true is that any sufficiently nice foundational system (i.e. one that has a proof verifier program and can reason about finite program runs) is $Σ_1$-complete, meaning that it proves every true $Σ_1$-sentence. Here, a $Σ_1$-sentence is an arithmetical sentence (i.e. quantifies only over $mathbbN$) that is equivalent to $∃k∈mathbbN ( Q(k) )$ for some arithmetical property $Q$ that uses only bounded quantifiers. For example, "There is an even number that is not the sum of two primes." can be expressed as a $Σ_1$-sentence. The "$Σ_1$" stands for "$1$ unbounded existential". Similarly a $Π_1$-sentence is an arithmetical sentence equivalent to one with only $1$ unbounded universal quantifier in Skolem normal form.



    In general, if you have a $Π_1$-sentence $C ≡ ∀k∈mathbbN ( Q(k) )$, then $¬C$ is a $Σ_1$-sentence. Thus if $C$ is false, $¬C$ is true and hence provable in any sufficiently nice foundational system by $Σ_1$-completeness. This does not apply to all false sentences!



    It turns out that non-trivially RH (Riemann Hypothesis) is equivalent to a $Π_1$-sentence, and hence by the above we know that if it is false then even PA (Peano Arithmetic) can disprove it. Also, I should add that no expert believes that it would be any easier to prove unprovability of RH over PA than to directly disprove RH, even if it is false in the first place.



    Godel's incompleteness theorem has completely nothing to do with $Σ_1$-completeness. In fact, the generalized incompleteness theorem shows that any sufficiently nice foundational system (regardless of what underlying logic it uses) necessarily is either $Π_1$-incomplete or proves $0=1$. That is, if it is arithmetically consistent (i.e. does not prove $0=1$) then it also does not prove some true $Π_1$-sentence. Moreover, we can find such a sentence uniformly and explicitly (as described in the linked post).






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$








    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Thank you for explaining that this implication is non-trivial. I've had so many people act like it's obvious that if RH is false you must be able to produce a counterexample, and look at me like I'm crazy when I ask "What if the only counterexamples are non-definable numbers?"
      $endgroup$
      – MartianInvader
      4 hours ago















    21












    $begingroup$


    That is, how do we know that all false statements are provably so?




    This is simply wrong. There are both true and false statements that cannot be proven. What is true is that any sufficiently nice foundational system (i.e. one that has a proof verifier program and can reason about finite program runs) is $Σ_1$-complete, meaning that it proves every true $Σ_1$-sentence. Here, a $Σ_1$-sentence is an arithmetical sentence (i.e. quantifies only over $mathbbN$) that is equivalent to $∃k∈mathbbN ( Q(k) )$ for some arithmetical property $Q$ that uses only bounded quantifiers. For example, "There is an even number that is not the sum of two primes." can be expressed as a $Σ_1$-sentence. The "$Σ_1$" stands for "$1$ unbounded existential". Similarly a $Π_1$-sentence is an arithmetical sentence equivalent to one with only $1$ unbounded universal quantifier in Skolem normal form.



    In general, if you have a $Π_1$-sentence $C ≡ ∀k∈mathbbN ( Q(k) )$, then $¬C$ is a $Σ_1$-sentence. Thus if $C$ is false, $¬C$ is true and hence provable in any sufficiently nice foundational system by $Σ_1$-completeness. This does not apply to all false sentences!



    It turns out that non-trivially RH (Riemann Hypothesis) is equivalent to a $Π_1$-sentence, and hence by the above we know that if it is false then even PA (Peano Arithmetic) can disprove it. Also, I should add that no expert believes that it would be any easier to prove unprovability of RH over PA than to directly disprove RH, even if it is false in the first place.



    Godel's incompleteness theorem has completely nothing to do with $Σ_1$-completeness. In fact, the generalized incompleteness theorem shows that any sufficiently nice foundational system (regardless of what underlying logic it uses) necessarily is either $Π_1$-incomplete or proves $0=1$. That is, if it is arithmetically consistent (i.e. does not prove $0=1$) then it also does not prove some true $Π_1$-sentence. Moreover, we can find such a sentence uniformly and explicitly (as described in the linked post).






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$








    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Thank you for explaining that this implication is non-trivial. I've had so many people act like it's obvious that if RH is false you must be able to produce a counterexample, and look at me like I'm crazy when I ask "What if the only counterexamples are non-definable numbers?"
      $endgroup$
      – MartianInvader
      4 hours ago













    21












    21








    21





    $begingroup$


    That is, how do we know that all false statements are provably so?




    This is simply wrong. There are both true and false statements that cannot be proven. What is true is that any sufficiently nice foundational system (i.e. one that has a proof verifier program and can reason about finite program runs) is $Σ_1$-complete, meaning that it proves every true $Σ_1$-sentence. Here, a $Σ_1$-sentence is an arithmetical sentence (i.e. quantifies only over $mathbbN$) that is equivalent to $∃k∈mathbbN ( Q(k) )$ for some arithmetical property $Q$ that uses only bounded quantifiers. For example, "There is an even number that is not the sum of two primes." can be expressed as a $Σ_1$-sentence. The "$Σ_1$" stands for "$1$ unbounded existential". Similarly a $Π_1$-sentence is an arithmetical sentence equivalent to one with only $1$ unbounded universal quantifier in Skolem normal form.



    In general, if you have a $Π_1$-sentence $C ≡ ∀k∈mathbbN ( Q(k) )$, then $¬C$ is a $Σ_1$-sentence. Thus if $C$ is false, $¬C$ is true and hence provable in any sufficiently nice foundational system by $Σ_1$-completeness. This does not apply to all false sentences!



    It turns out that non-trivially RH (Riemann Hypothesis) is equivalent to a $Π_1$-sentence, and hence by the above we know that if it is false then even PA (Peano Arithmetic) can disprove it. Also, I should add that no expert believes that it would be any easier to prove unprovability of RH over PA than to directly disprove RH, even if it is false in the first place.



    Godel's incompleteness theorem has completely nothing to do with $Σ_1$-completeness. In fact, the generalized incompleteness theorem shows that any sufficiently nice foundational system (regardless of what underlying logic it uses) necessarily is either $Π_1$-incomplete or proves $0=1$. That is, if it is arithmetically consistent (i.e. does not prove $0=1$) then it also does not prove some true $Π_1$-sentence. Moreover, we can find such a sentence uniformly and explicitly (as described in the linked post).






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$




    That is, how do we know that all false statements are provably so?




    This is simply wrong. There are both true and false statements that cannot be proven. What is true is that any sufficiently nice foundational system (i.e. one that has a proof verifier program and can reason about finite program runs) is $Σ_1$-complete, meaning that it proves every true $Σ_1$-sentence. Here, a $Σ_1$-sentence is an arithmetical sentence (i.e. quantifies only over $mathbbN$) that is equivalent to $∃k∈mathbbN ( Q(k) )$ for some arithmetical property $Q$ that uses only bounded quantifiers. For example, "There is an even number that is not the sum of two primes." can be expressed as a $Σ_1$-sentence. The "$Σ_1$" stands for "$1$ unbounded existential". Similarly a $Π_1$-sentence is an arithmetical sentence equivalent to one with only $1$ unbounded universal quantifier in Skolem normal form.



    In general, if you have a $Π_1$-sentence $C ≡ ∀k∈mathbbN ( Q(k) )$, then $¬C$ is a $Σ_1$-sentence. Thus if $C$ is false, $¬C$ is true and hence provable in any sufficiently nice foundational system by $Σ_1$-completeness. This does not apply to all false sentences!



    It turns out that non-trivially RH (Riemann Hypothesis) is equivalent to a $Π_1$-sentence, and hence by the above we know that if it is false then even PA (Peano Arithmetic) can disprove it. Also, I should add that no expert believes that it would be any easier to prove unprovability of RH over PA than to directly disprove RH, even if it is false in the first place.



    Godel's incompleteness theorem has completely nothing to do with $Σ_1$-completeness. In fact, the generalized incompleteness theorem shows that any sufficiently nice foundational system (regardless of what underlying logic it uses) necessarily is either $Π_1$-incomplete or proves $0=1$. That is, if it is arithmetically consistent (i.e. does not prove $0=1$) then it also does not prove some true $Π_1$-sentence. Moreover, we can find such a sentence uniformly and explicitly (as described in the linked post).







    share|cite|improve this answer












    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer










    answered 16 hours ago









    user21820user21820

    39.6k543156




    39.6k543156







    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Thank you for explaining that this implication is non-trivial. I've had so many people act like it's obvious that if RH is false you must be able to produce a counterexample, and look at me like I'm crazy when I ask "What if the only counterexamples are non-definable numbers?"
      $endgroup$
      – MartianInvader
      4 hours ago












    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Thank you for explaining that this implication is non-trivial. I've had so many people act like it's obvious that if RH is false you must be able to produce a counterexample, and look at me like I'm crazy when I ask "What if the only counterexamples are non-definable numbers?"
      $endgroup$
      – MartianInvader
      4 hours ago







    1




    1




    $begingroup$
    Thank you for explaining that this implication is non-trivial. I've had so many people act like it's obvious that if RH is false you must be able to produce a counterexample, and look at me like I'm crazy when I ask "What if the only counterexamples are non-definable numbers?"
    $endgroup$
    – MartianInvader
    4 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    Thank you for explaining that this implication is non-trivial. I've had so many people act like it's obvious that if RH is false you must be able to produce a counterexample, and look at me like I'm crazy when I ask "What if the only counterexamples are non-definable numbers?"
    $endgroup$
    – MartianInvader
    4 hours ago











    5












    $begingroup$

    This argument doesn't show that all false statements are provably so. (That's impossible for trivial reasons: if $P$ is a true statement that's not provable, then $lnot P$ is a false statement that's not provable.) The argument shows that the Riemann hypothesis, if false, is provably so, because there would be a specific number $s$ (in the critical strip but not on the critical line) at which $zeta(s)=0$, and so there would exist a proof (show that that specific number is a zero of $zeta$).






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$








    • 6




      $begingroup$
      Note that your final claim is not obvious--even if some number is a zero of $zeta$, why must it be possible to prove that? It turns out that if such a zero exists then it can always be detected by some finite calculation, but this takes some work to prove.
      $endgroup$
      – Eric Wofsey
      17 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @EricWofsey I agree with you. Still I hope my answer illustrates the logic point being sought.
      $endgroup$
      – Greg Martin
      17 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      "a true statement that's not provable" does that even make sense? If it's not provable, what does "true" even mean?
      $endgroup$
      – Arthur
      12 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @Arthur: I can't speak for this answer, but truth is in fact well-defined for arithmetical sentences, and (as per my answer) there is always some true arithmetical sentence that you cannot prove in your chosen foundational system.
      $endgroup$
      – user21820
      11 hours ago















    5












    $begingroup$

    This argument doesn't show that all false statements are provably so. (That's impossible for trivial reasons: if $P$ is a true statement that's not provable, then $lnot P$ is a false statement that's not provable.) The argument shows that the Riemann hypothesis, if false, is provably so, because there would be a specific number $s$ (in the critical strip but not on the critical line) at which $zeta(s)=0$, and so there would exist a proof (show that that specific number is a zero of $zeta$).






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$








    • 6




      $begingroup$
      Note that your final claim is not obvious--even if some number is a zero of $zeta$, why must it be possible to prove that? It turns out that if such a zero exists then it can always be detected by some finite calculation, but this takes some work to prove.
      $endgroup$
      – Eric Wofsey
      17 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @EricWofsey I agree with you. Still I hope my answer illustrates the logic point being sought.
      $endgroup$
      – Greg Martin
      17 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      "a true statement that's not provable" does that even make sense? If it's not provable, what does "true" even mean?
      $endgroup$
      – Arthur
      12 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @Arthur: I can't speak for this answer, but truth is in fact well-defined for arithmetical sentences, and (as per my answer) there is always some true arithmetical sentence that you cannot prove in your chosen foundational system.
      $endgroup$
      – user21820
      11 hours ago













    5












    5








    5





    $begingroup$

    This argument doesn't show that all false statements are provably so. (That's impossible for trivial reasons: if $P$ is a true statement that's not provable, then $lnot P$ is a false statement that's not provable.) The argument shows that the Riemann hypothesis, if false, is provably so, because there would be a specific number $s$ (in the critical strip but not on the critical line) at which $zeta(s)=0$, and so there would exist a proof (show that that specific number is a zero of $zeta$).






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$



    This argument doesn't show that all false statements are provably so. (That's impossible for trivial reasons: if $P$ is a true statement that's not provable, then $lnot P$ is a false statement that's not provable.) The argument shows that the Riemann hypothesis, if false, is provably so, because there would be a specific number $s$ (in the critical strip but not on the critical line) at which $zeta(s)=0$, and so there would exist a proof (show that that specific number is a zero of $zeta$).







    share|cite|improve this answer












    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer










    answered 17 hours ago









    Greg MartinGreg Martin

    36.4k23565




    36.4k23565







    • 6




      $begingroup$
      Note that your final claim is not obvious--even if some number is a zero of $zeta$, why must it be possible to prove that? It turns out that if such a zero exists then it can always be detected by some finite calculation, but this takes some work to prove.
      $endgroup$
      – Eric Wofsey
      17 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @EricWofsey I agree with you. Still I hope my answer illustrates the logic point being sought.
      $endgroup$
      – Greg Martin
      17 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      "a true statement that's not provable" does that even make sense? If it's not provable, what does "true" even mean?
      $endgroup$
      – Arthur
      12 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @Arthur: I can't speak for this answer, but truth is in fact well-defined for arithmetical sentences, and (as per my answer) there is always some true arithmetical sentence that you cannot prove in your chosen foundational system.
      $endgroup$
      – user21820
      11 hours ago












    • 6




      $begingroup$
      Note that your final claim is not obvious--even if some number is a zero of $zeta$, why must it be possible to prove that? It turns out that if such a zero exists then it can always be detected by some finite calculation, but this takes some work to prove.
      $endgroup$
      – Eric Wofsey
      17 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @EricWofsey I agree with you. Still I hope my answer illustrates the logic point being sought.
      $endgroup$
      – Greg Martin
      17 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      "a true statement that's not provable" does that even make sense? If it's not provable, what does "true" even mean?
      $endgroup$
      – Arthur
      12 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      @Arthur: I can't speak for this answer, but truth is in fact well-defined for arithmetical sentences, and (as per my answer) there is always some true arithmetical sentence that you cannot prove in your chosen foundational system.
      $endgroup$
      – user21820
      11 hours ago







    6




    6




    $begingroup$
    Note that your final claim is not obvious--even if some number is a zero of $zeta$, why must it be possible to prove that? It turns out that if such a zero exists then it can always be detected by some finite calculation, but this takes some work to prove.
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    17 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    Note that your final claim is not obvious--even if some number is a zero of $zeta$, why must it be possible to prove that? It turns out that if such a zero exists then it can always be detected by some finite calculation, but this takes some work to prove.
    $endgroup$
    – Eric Wofsey
    17 hours ago












    $begingroup$
    @EricWofsey I agree with you. Still I hope my answer illustrates the logic point being sought.
    $endgroup$
    – Greg Martin
    17 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    @EricWofsey I agree with you. Still I hope my answer illustrates the logic point being sought.
    $endgroup$
    – Greg Martin
    17 hours ago












    $begingroup$
    "a true statement that's not provable" does that even make sense? If it's not provable, what does "true" even mean?
    $endgroup$
    – Arthur
    12 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    "a true statement that's not provable" does that even make sense? If it's not provable, what does "true" even mean?
    $endgroup$
    – Arthur
    12 hours ago












    $begingroup$
    @Arthur: I can't speak for this answer, but truth is in fact well-defined for arithmetical sentences, and (as per my answer) there is always some true arithmetical sentence that you cannot prove in your chosen foundational system.
    $endgroup$
    – user21820
    11 hours ago




    $begingroup$
    @Arthur: I can't speak for this answer, but truth is in fact well-defined for arithmetical sentences, and (as per my answer) there is always some true arithmetical sentence that you cannot prove in your chosen foundational system.
    $endgroup$
    – user21820
    11 hours ago











    4












    $begingroup$

    Because if you were lucky enough to guess the counterexample, you could just check it. Note that this only works for problems where it's easy to check whether a given value is in fact a counterexample. To take a non-mathematical example, you have no hope of proving you've found a counterexample to "all people are mortal" because you'd have to verify some individual is immortal, meaning you'd have to verify nothing at all can kill them, which isn't possible.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$

















      4












      $begingroup$

      Because if you were lucky enough to guess the counterexample, you could just check it. Note that this only works for problems where it's easy to check whether a given value is in fact a counterexample. To take a non-mathematical example, you have no hope of proving you've found a counterexample to "all people are mortal" because you'd have to verify some individual is immortal, meaning you'd have to verify nothing at all can kill them, which isn't possible.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$















        4












        4








        4





        $begingroup$

        Because if you were lucky enough to guess the counterexample, you could just check it. Note that this only works for problems where it's easy to check whether a given value is in fact a counterexample. To take a non-mathematical example, you have no hope of proving you've found a counterexample to "all people are mortal" because you'd have to verify some individual is immortal, meaning you'd have to verify nothing at all can kill them, which isn't possible.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$



        Because if you were lucky enough to guess the counterexample, you could just check it. Note that this only works for problems where it's easy to check whether a given value is in fact a counterexample. To take a non-mathematical example, you have no hope of proving you've found a counterexample to "all people are mortal" because you'd have to verify some individual is immortal, meaning you'd have to verify nothing at all can kill them, which isn't possible.







        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










        answered 17 hours ago









        J.G.J.G.

        30.8k23149




        30.8k23149



























            draft saved

            draft discarded
















































            Thanks for contributing an answer to Mathematics Stack Exchange!


            • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

            But avoid


            • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

            • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

            Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


            To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




            draft saved


            draft discarded














            StackExchange.ready(
            function ()
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3153739%2fwhy-doesnt-g%25c3%25b6dels-incompleteness-theorem-apply-to-false-statements%23new-answer', 'question_page');

            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown





















































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown

































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown







            Popular posts from this blog

            Sum ergo cogito? 1 nng

            419 nièngy_Soadمي 19bal1.5o_g

            Queiggey Chernihivv 9NnOo i Zw X QqKk LpB