Why does this relative pronoun not take the case of the noun it is referring to? The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are InHow to avoid using the relative pronoun “was” in this sentence?The grammatical case of a “free-standing” noun phrasewhat kind of case does the object in comparative sentence take?Which relative pronoun to use when referring to an entire sentence?Why does “unter” not take dative case in “unter etwas fallen”?Why are the first parts of these sentences not in nominative case?When does ‘trotz’ govern the dative case?What is the right relative pronoun in the following sentence?Why is the adjective ending of the accusative case used in this sentence after »als«?Why dativ case for the verb widerspricht?

Why don't hard Brexiteers insist on a hard border to prevent illegal immigration after Brexit?

What do I do when my TA workload is more than expected?

What is the most efficient way to store a numeric range?

How to charge AirPods to keep battery healthy?

How can I add encounters in the Lost Mine of Phandelver campaign without giving PCs too much XP?

Does adding complexity mean a more secure cipher?

How to notate time signature switching consistently every measure

How to display lines in a file like ls displays files in a directory?

How to translate "being like"?

Why “相同意思的词” is called “同义词” instead of "同意词"?

Did any laptop computers have a built-in 5 1/4 inch floppy drive?

Relationship between Gromov-Witten and Taubes' Gromov invariant

The phrase "to the numbers born"?

What's the name of these plastic connectors

Are turbopumps lubricated?

Slides for 30 min~1 hr Skype tenure track application interview

Is Cinnamon a desktop environment or a window manager? (Or both?)

I am an eight letter word. What am I?

Accepted by European university, rejected by all American ones I applied to? Possible reasons?

Is an up-to-date browser secure on an out-of-date OS?

What information about me do stores get via my credit card?

Can withdrawing asylum be illegal?

Ubuntu Server install with full GUI

Is it safe to harvest rainwater that fell on solar panels?



Why does this relative pronoun not take the case of the noun it is referring to?



The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are InHow to avoid using the relative pronoun “was” in this sentence?The grammatical case of a “free-standing” noun phrasewhat kind of case does the object in comparative sentence take?Which relative pronoun to use when referring to an entire sentence?Why does “unter” not take dative case in “unter etwas fallen”?Why are the first parts of these sentences not in nominative case?When does ‘trotz’ govern the dative case?What is the right relative pronoun in the following sentence?Why is the adjective ending of the accusative case used in this sentence after »als«?Why dativ case for the verb widerspricht?










8















The University of Michigan gives this sentence on their page about relative pronouns:




Jeden Morgen tritt Jack Nicholson meinen kleinen Hund, der mich immer wütend macht."




The page said the der referred back to meinem kleinen Hund but since Jack Nicholson is in the nominative position of this sentence (meinen kleinen Hund is in the accusative), why wouldn’t der refer back to Jack Nicholson?










share|improve this question



















  • 1





    Semantisch ist das sehr merkwürdig. Wenn Dich der Hund wütend macht - wieso trittst Du ihn nicht selbst? Wieso hast Du überhaupt einen Hund, wenn er Dich wütend macht? Zum Glück hast Du die Quelle verlinkt, sonst hätte ich gedacht, dass es ein Übertragungsfehler ist oder ein miserables Lehrbuch (hatten wir auch schon).

    – user unknown
    Apr 7 at 23:38











  • I second the first comment that the sentence does not sound very good/natural to me: I think the University of Michigan is trying to make their point with a sentence that is highly artificial. The first version they describe would be very natural indeed to express your annoyance about Jack Nicholson kicking your dog, whereas the second version just seems a weird construct from a logical point of view. Even though it is grammatical correct.

    – user2705196
    Apr 8 at 19:08












  • Bad premise. Relative pronouns don't conform to the case of their antecedent. Their case conforms to their function in the relative clause.

    – Kilian Foth
    2 days ago















8















The University of Michigan gives this sentence on their page about relative pronouns:




Jeden Morgen tritt Jack Nicholson meinen kleinen Hund, der mich immer wütend macht."




The page said the der referred back to meinem kleinen Hund but since Jack Nicholson is in the nominative position of this sentence (meinen kleinen Hund is in the accusative), why wouldn’t der refer back to Jack Nicholson?










share|improve this question



















  • 1





    Semantisch ist das sehr merkwürdig. Wenn Dich der Hund wütend macht - wieso trittst Du ihn nicht selbst? Wieso hast Du überhaupt einen Hund, wenn er Dich wütend macht? Zum Glück hast Du die Quelle verlinkt, sonst hätte ich gedacht, dass es ein Übertragungsfehler ist oder ein miserables Lehrbuch (hatten wir auch schon).

    – user unknown
    Apr 7 at 23:38











  • I second the first comment that the sentence does not sound very good/natural to me: I think the University of Michigan is trying to make their point with a sentence that is highly artificial. The first version they describe would be very natural indeed to express your annoyance about Jack Nicholson kicking your dog, whereas the second version just seems a weird construct from a logical point of view. Even though it is grammatical correct.

    – user2705196
    Apr 8 at 19:08












  • Bad premise. Relative pronouns don't conform to the case of their antecedent. Their case conforms to their function in the relative clause.

    – Kilian Foth
    2 days ago













8












8








8








The University of Michigan gives this sentence on their page about relative pronouns:




Jeden Morgen tritt Jack Nicholson meinen kleinen Hund, der mich immer wütend macht."




The page said the der referred back to meinem kleinen Hund but since Jack Nicholson is in the nominative position of this sentence (meinen kleinen Hund is in the accusative), why wouldn’t der refer back to Jack Nicholson?










share|improve this question
















The University of Michigan gives this sentence on their page about relative pronouns:




Jeden Morgen tritt Jack Nicholson meinen kleinen Hund, der mich immer wütend macht."




The page said the der referred back to meinem kleinen Hund but since Jack Nicholson is in the nominative position of this sentence (meinen kleinen Hund is in the accusative), why wouldn’t der refer back to Jack Nicholson?







grammatical-case relative-pronouns






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited Apr 8 at 9:42









Wrzlprmft

18.4k548114




18.4k548114










asked Apr 7 at 17:51









AaronAaron

63317




63317







  • 1





    Semantisch ist das sehr merkwürdig. Wenn Dich der Hund wütend macht - wieso trittst Du ihn nicht selbst? Wieso hast Du überhaupt einen Hund, wenn er Dich wütend macht? Zum Glück hast Du die Quelle verlinkt, sonst hätte ich gedacht, dass es ein Übertragungsfehler ist oder ein miserables Lehrbuch (hatten wir auch schon).

    – user unknown
    Apr 7 at 23:38











  • I second the first comment that the sentence does not sound very good/natural to me: I think the University of Michigan is trying to make their point with a sentence that is highly artificial. The first version they describe would be very natural indeed to express your annoyance about Jack Nicholson kicking your dog, whereas the second version just seems a weird construct from a logical point of view. Even though it is grammatical correct.

    – user2705196
    Apr 8 at 19:08












  • Bad premise. Relative pronouns don't conform to the case of their antecedent. Their case conforms to their function in the relative clause.

    – Kilian Foth
    2 days ago












  • 1





    Semantisch ist das sehr merkwürdig. Wenn Dich der Hund wütend macht - wieso trittst Du ihn nicht selbst? Wieso hast Du überhaupt einen Hund, wenn er Dich wütend macht? Zum Glück hast Du die Quelle verlinkt, sonst hätte ich gedacht, dass es ein Übertragungsfehler ist oder ein miserables Lehrbuch (hatten wir auch schon).

    – user unknown
    Apr 7 at 23:38











  • I second the first comment that the sentence does not sound very good/natural to me: I think the University of Michigan is trying to make their point with a sentence that is highly artificial. The first version they describe would be very natural indeed to express your annoyance about Jack Nicholson kicking your dog, whereas the second version just seems a weird construct from a logical point of view. Even though it is grammatical correct.

    – user2705196
    Apr 8 at 19:08












  • Bad premise. Relative pronouns don't conform to the case of their antecedent. Their case conforms to their function in the relative clause.

    – Kilian Foth
    2 days ago







1




1





Semantisch ist das sehr merkwürdig. Wenn Dich der Hund wütend macht - wieso trittst Du ihn nicht selbst? Wieso hast Du überhaupt einen Hund, wenn er Dich wütend macht? Zum Glück hast Du die Quelle verlinkt, sonst hätte ich gedacht, dass es ein Übertragungsfehler ist oder ein miserables Lehrbuch (hatten wir auch schon).

– user unknown
Apr 7 at 23:38





Semantisch ist das sehr merkwürdig. Wenn Dich der Hund wütend macht - wieso trittst Du ihn nicht selbst? Wieso hast Du überhaupt einen Hund, wenn er Dich wütend macht? Zum Glück hast Du die Quelle verlinkt, sonst hätte ich gedacht, dass es ein Übertragungsfehler ist oder ein miserables Lehrbuch (hatten wir auch schon).

– user unknown
Apr 7 at 23:38













I second the first comment that the sentence does not sound very good/natural to me: I think the University of Michigan is trying to make their point with a sentence that is highly artificial. The first version they describe would be very natural indeed to express your annoyance about Jack Nicholson kicking your dog, whereas the second version just seems a weird construct from a logical point of view. Even though it is grammatical correct.

– user2705196
Apr 8 at 19:08






I second the first comment that the sentence does not sound very good/natural to me: I think the University of Michigan is trying to make their point with a sentence that is highly artificial. The first version they describe would be very natural indeed to express your annoyance about Jack Nicholson kicking your dog, whereas the second version just seems a weird construct from a logical point of view. Even though it is grammatical correct.

– user2705196
Apr 8 at 19:08














Bad premise. Relative pronouns don't conform to the case of their antecedent. Their case conforms to their function in the relative clause.

– Kilian Foth
2 days ago





Bad premise. Relative pronouns don't conform to the case of their antecedent. Their case conforms to their function in the relative clause.

– Kilian Foth
2 days ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















21















Jeden Morgen tritt Jack Nicholson meinen kleinen Hund, der mich immer wütend macht.




A relative pronoun must match the gender of its antecedent. In the given sentence, der is masculine and there are therefore two possible antecedents in the matrix clause: the subject Jack Nicholson and the object meinen kleinen Hund. However, the relative clause can only be interpreted as referring to the latter.



Note that this is the case despite the fact that the relative clause has intentionally been phrased in such a way that it is semantically more plausible for Jack Nicholson to be the antecedent (dog-kicking tends to make people angry at the person doing the kicking). This makes the fact that the relative clause cannot have Jack Nicholson as its antecedent all the more salient.



Also note that if we replace masculine Hund by feminine Katze, the only possible antecedent of the relative clause is Jack Nicholson, and yet the relative clause still cannot be interpreted as referring to him. The following sentence is ungrammatical:




*Jeden Morgen tritt Jack Nicholson meine kleine Katze, der mich immer wütend macht.




We can conclude that it is not enough for a relative pronoun to match the gender of its antecedent. The relative clause it introduces must also be positioned correctly. To quote a rule from the same page:




The relative clause always comes right after the noun it is describing.




(But note the exception for "dangling verbs".) Since the relative clause in the original example follows the object, it can only modify the object, i.e. meinen kleinen Hund.



Finally, as far as case is concerned, note that the case of the relative pronoun is completely independent of the case of its antecedent. They occur in different sentences, after all! Let's look at some examples from the section How to choose the correct relative pronoun on this page with supplementary information.




Das ist der Laden [Nom.], den (Acc.) ich liebe.

Wir gehen in den Laden [Acc.], den (Acc.) ich liebe.

Wir sind in dem Laden [Dat.], den (Acc.) ich liebe.

Wer ist der Besitzer des Ladens [Gen.], den (Acc.) ich liebe?



Das ist der Laden [Nom.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde.

Wir gehen in den Laden [Acc.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde.

Wir sind in dem Laden [Dat.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde.

Wer ist der Besitzer des Ladens [Gen.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde?




Observe how the case of the relative pronoun is determined by the verb in the subordinate clause (lieben + accusative in the first four examples, schulden + dative in the others), whereas the case of the antecedent is determined within the matrix clause.






share|improve this answer
































    1














    It's very much the same in English, "John loves Isi, who I just barely like". The grammatical case does not prohibit the construction, as @David said.



    However, it might be more pleasing to continue in the same case, "... meinen Hund, den ...", leaving it in an object position. Although there's no overt preference, it stands to reason. Unless the relative clause restricts or explains the main clause (I mean what the hell, Jack, what was that for, and why would anyone permit that to happen repeatedly), it would be more natural to start a new sentence. Whereas, if restricting the main clause, the dog may well remain in object position, as the dog is not a subject that could be actively responsible for those actions. Phrasing the given relative clause with the dog as an accusative object would be rather difficult though (the passive transposition would use dativ "von dem"). Therefore it's not done and the resulting argument is subjective, not objective, and thus not conclusive. We would naturally have to ask, "what, wait a second, you don't even like the dog and let it be kicked?". Better would be thus, "... meinen Hund, den ich sowieso nicht mag, denn der ärgert mich immer". That's a matter of style more than grammar, and in many cases it is fine either way. But it's a good question.






    share|improve this answer























    • Of course, careful written English will often still use "whom I just barely like", but this is really foreign to many native English speakers while the use of the correct case for the relative pronoun comes naturally to native German speakers.

      – Carsten S
      Apr 8 at 9:56











    Your Answer








    StackExchange.ready(function()
    var channelOptions =
    tags: "".split(" "),
    id: "253"
    ;
    initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

    StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
    // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
    if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
    StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
    createEditor();
    );

    else
    createEditor();

    );

    function createEditor()
    StackExchange.prepareEditor(
    heartbeatType: 'answer',
    autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
    convertImagesToLinks: false,
    noModals: true,
    showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
    reputationToPostImages: null,
    bindNavPrevention: true,
    postfix: "",
    imageUploader:
    brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
    contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
    allowUrls: true
    ,
    noCode: true, onDemand: true,
    discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
    ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
    );



    );













    draft saved

    draft discarded


















    StackExchange.ready(
    function ()
    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fgerman.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f50543%2fwhy-does-this-relative-pronoun-not-take-the-case-of-the-noun-it-is-referring-to%23new-answer', 'question_page');

    );

    Post as a guest















    Required, but never shown

























    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes








    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    21















    Jeden Morgen tritt Jack Nicholson meinen kleinen Hund, der mich immer wütend macht.




    A relative pronoun must match the gender of its antecedent. In the given sentence, der is masculine and there are therefore two possible antecedents in the matrix clause: the subject Jack Nicholson and the object meinen kleinen Hund. However, the relative clause can only be interpreted as referring to the latter.



    Note that this is the case despite the fact that the relative clause has intentionally been phrased in such a way that it is semantically more plausible for Jack Nicholson to be the antecedent (dog-kicking tends to make people angry at the person doing the kicking). This makes the fact that the relative clause cannot have Jack Nicholson as its antecedent all the more salient.



    Also note that if we replace masculine Hund by feminine Katze, the only possible antecedent of the relative clause is Jack Nicholson, and yet the relative clause still cannot be interpreted as referring to him. The following sentence is ungrammatical:




    *Jeden Morgen tritt Jack Nicholson meine kleine Katze, der mich immer wütend macht.




    We can conclude that it is not enough for a relative pronoun to match the gender of its antecedent. The relative clause it introduces must also be positioned correctly. To quote a rule from the same page:




    The relative clause always comes right after the noun it is describing.




    (But note the exception for "dangling verbs".) Since the relative clause in the original example follows the object, it can only modify the object, i.e. meinen kleinen Hund.



    Finally, as far as case is concerned, note that the case of the relative pronoun is completely independent of the case of its antecedent. They occur in different sentences, after all! Let's look at some examples from the section How to choose the correct relative pronoun on this page with supplementary information.




    Das ist der Laden [Nom.], den (Acc.) ich liebe.

    Wir gehen in den Laden [Acc.], den (Acc.) ich liebe.

    Wir sind in dem Laden [Dat.], den (Acc.) ich liebe.

    Wer ist der Besitzer des Ladens [Gen.], den (Acc.) ich liebe?



    Das ist der Laden [Nom.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde.

    Wir gehen in den Laden [Acc.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde.

    Wir sind in dem Laden [Dat.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde.

    Wer ist der Besitzer des Ladens [Gen.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde?




    Observe how the case of the relative pronoun is determined by the verb in the subordinate clause (lieben + accusative in the first four examples, schulden + dative in the others), whereas the case of the antecedent is determined within the matrix clause.






    share|improve this answer





























      21















      Jeden Morgen tritt Jack Nicholson meinen kleinen Hund, der mich immer wütend macht.




      A relative pronoun must match the gender of its antecedent. In the given sentence, der is masculine and there are therefore two possible antecedents in the matrix clause: the subject Jack Nicholson and the object meinen kleinen Hund. However, the relative clause can only be interpreted as referring to the latter.



      Note that this is the case despite the fact that the relative clause has intentionally been phrased in such a way that it is semantically more plausible for Jack Nicholson to be the antecedent (dog-kicking tends to make people angry at the person doing the kicking). This makes the fact that the relative clause cannot have Jack Nicholson as its antecedent all the more salient.



      Also note that if we replace masculine Hund by feminine Katze, the only possible antecedent of the relative clause is Jack Nicholson, and yet the relative clause still cannot be interpreted as referring to him. The following sentence is ungrammatical:




      *Jeden Morgen tritt Jack Nicholson meine kleine Katze, der mich immer wütend macht.




      We can conclude that it is not enough for a relative pronoun to match the gender of its antecedent. The relative clause it introduces must also be positioned correctly. To quote a rule from the same page:




      The relative clause always comes right after the noun it is describing.




      (But note the exception for "dangling verbs".) Since the relative clause in the original example follows the object, it can only modify the object, i.e. meinen kleinen Hund.



      Finally, as far as case is concerned, note that the case of the relative pronoun is completely independent of the case of its antecedent. They occur in different sentences, after all! Let's look at some examples from the section How to choose the correct relative pronoun on this page with supplementary information.




      Das ist der Laden [Nom.], den (Acc.) ich liebe.

      Wir gehen in den Laden [Acc.], den (Acc.) ich liebe.

      Wir sind in dem Laden [Dat.], den (Acc.) ich liebe.

      Wer ist der Besitzer des Ladens [Gen.], den (Acc.) ich liebe?



      Das ist der Laden [Nom.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde.

      Wir gehen in den Laden [Acc.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde.

      Wir sind in dem Laden [Dat.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde.

      Wer ist der Besitzer des Ladens [Gen.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde?




      Observe how the case of the relative pronoun is determined by the verb in the subordinate clause (lieben + accusative in the first four examples, schulden + dative in the others), whereas the case of the antecedent is determined within the matrix clause.






      share|improve this answer



























        21












        21








        21








        Jeden Morgen tritt Jack Nicholson meinen kleinen Hund, der mich immer wütend macht.




        A relative pronoun must match the gender of its antecedent. In the given sentence, der is masculine and there are therefore two possible antecedents in the matrix clause: the subject Jack Nicholson and the object meinen kleinen Hund. However, the relative clause can only be interpreted as referring to the latter.



        Note that this is the case despite the fact that the relative clause has intentionally been phrased in such a way that it is semantically more plausible for Jack Nicholson to be the antecedent (dog-kicking tends to make people angry at the person doing the kicking). This makes the fact that the relative clause cannot have Jack Nicholson as its antecedent all the more salient.



        Also note that if we replace masculine Hund by feminine Katze, the only possible antecedent of the relative clause is Jack Nicholson, and yet the relative clause still cannot be interpreted as referring to him. The following sentence is ungrammatical:




        *Jeden Morgen tritt Jack Nicholson meine kleine Katze, der mich immer wütend macht.




        We can conclude that it is not enough for a relative pronoun to match the gender of its antecedent. The relative clause it introduces must also be positioned correctly. To quote a rule from the same page:




        The relative clause always comes right after the noun it is describing.




        (But note the exception for "dangling verbs".) Since the relative clause in the original example follows the object, it can only modify the object, i.e. meinen kleinen Hund.



        Finally, as far as case is concerned, note that the case of the relative pronoun is completely independent of the case of its antecedent. They occur in different sentences, after all! Let's look at some examples from the section How to choose the correct relative pronoun on this page with supplementary information.




        Das ist der Laden [Nom.], den (Acc.) ich liebe.

        Wir gehen in den Laden [Acc.], den (Acc.) ich liebe.

        Wir sind in dem Laden [Dat.], den (Acc.) ich liebe.

        Wer ist der Besitzer des Ladens [Gen.], den (Acc.) ich liebe?



        Das ist der Laden [Nom.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde.

        Wir gehen in den Laden [Acc.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde.

        Wir sind in dem Laden [Dat.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde.

        Wer ist der Besitzer des Ladens [Gen.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde?




        Observe how the case of the relative pronoun is determined by the verb in the subordinate clause (lieben + accusative in the first four examples, schulden + dative in the others), whereas the case of the antecedent is determined within the matrix clause.






        share|improve this answer
















        Jeden Morgen tritt Jack Nicholson meinen kleinen Hund, der mich immer wütend macht.




        A relative pronoun must match the gender of its antecedent. In the given sentence, der is masculine and there are therefore two possible antecedents in the matrix clause: the subject Jack Nicholson and the object meinen kleinen Hund. However, the relative clause can only be interpreted as referring to the latter.



        Note that this is the case despite the fact that the relative clause has intentionally been phrased in such a way that it is semantically more plausible for Jack Nicholson to be the antecedent (dog-kicking tends to make people angry at the person doing the kicking). This makes the fact that the relative clause cannot have Jack Nicholson as its antecedent all the more salient.



        Also note that if we replace masculine Hund by feminine Katze, the only possible antecedent of the relative clause is Jack Nicholson, and yet the relative clause still cannot be interpreted as referring to him. The following sentence is ungrammatical:




        *Jeden Morgen tritt Jack Nicholson meine kleine Katze, der mich immer wütend macht.




        We can conclude that it is not enough for a relative pronoun to match the gender of its antecedent. The relative clause it introduces must also be positioned correctly. To quote a rule from the same page:




        The relative clause always comes right after the noun it is describing.




        (But note the exception for "dangling verbs".) Since the relative clause in the original example follows the object, it can only modify the object, i.e. meinen kleinen Hund.



        Finally, as far as case is concerned, note that the case of the relative pronoun is completely independent of the case of its antecedent. They occur in different sentences, after all! Let's look at some examples from the section How to choose the correct relative pronoun on this page with supplementary information.




        Das ist der Laden [Nom.], den (Acc.) ich liebe.

        Wir gehen in den Laden [Acc.], den (Acc.) ich liebe.

        Wir sind in dem Laden [Dat.], den (Acc.) ich liebe.

        Wer ist der Besitzer des Ladens [Gen.], den (Acc.) ich liebe?



        Das ist der Laden [Nom.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde.

        Wir gehen in den Laden [Acc.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde.

        Wir sind in dem Laden [Dat.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde.

        Wer ist der Besitzer des Ladens [Gen.], dem (Dat.) ich €20.000 schulde?




        Observe how the case of the relative pronoun is determined by the verb in the subordinate clause (lieben + accusative in the first four examples, schulden + dative in the others), whereas the case of the antecedent is determined within the matrix clause.







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited Apr 8 at 13:04

























        answered Apr 7 at 18:09









        David VogtDavid Vogt

        5,1971332




        5,1971332





















            1














            It's very much the same in English, "John loves Isi, who I just barely like". The grammatical case does not prohibit the construction, as @David said.



            However, it might be more pleasing to continue in the same case, "... meinen Hund, den ...", leaving it in an object position. Although there's no overt preference, it stands to reason. Unless the relative clause restricts or explains the main clause (I mean what the hell, Jack, what was that for, and why would anyone permit that to happen repeatedly), it would be more natural to start a new sentence. Whereas, if restricting the main clause, the dog may well remain in object position, as the dog is not a subject that could be actively responsible for those actions. Phrasing the given relative clause with the dog as an accusative object would be rather difficult though (the passive transposition would use dativ "von dem"). Therefore it's not done and the resulting argument is subjective, not objective, and thus not conclusive. We would naturally have to ask, "what, wait a second, you don't even like the dog and let it be kicked?". Better would be thus, "... meinen Hund, den ich sowieso nicht mag, denn der ärgert mich immer". That's a matter of style more than grammar, and in many cases it is fine either way. But it's a good question.






            share|improve this answer























            • Of course, careful written English will often still use "whom I just barely like", but this is really foreign to many native English speakers while the use of the correct case for the relative pronoun comes naturally to native German speakers.

              – Carsten S
              Apr 8 at 9:56















            1














            It's very much the same in English, "John loves Isi, who I just barely like". The grammatical case does not prohibit the construction, as @David said.



            However, it might be more pleasing to continue in the same case, "... meinen Hund, den ...", leaving it in an object position. Although there's no overt preference, it stands to reason. Unless the relative clause restricts or explains the main clause (I mean what the hell, Jack, what was that for, and why would anyone permit that to happen repeatedly), it would be more natural to start a new sentence. Whereas, if restricting the main clause, the dog may well remain in object position, as the dog is not a subject that could be actively responsible for those actions. Phrasing the given relative clause with the dog as an accusative object would be rather difficult though (the passive transposition would use dativ "von dem"). Therefore it's not done and the resulting argument is subjective, not objective, and thus not conclusive. We would naturally have to ask, "what, wait a second, you don't even like the dog and let it be kicked?". Better would be thus, "... meinen Hund, den ich sowieso nicht mag, denn der ärgert mich immer". That's a matter of style more than grammar, and in many cases it is fine either way. But it's a good question.






            share|improve this answer























            • Of course, careful written English will often still use "whom I just barely like", but this is really foreign to many native English speakers while the use of the correct case for the relative pronoun comes naturally to native German speakers.

              – Carsten S
              Apr 8 at 9:56













            1












            1








            1







            It's very much the same in English, "John loves Isi, who I just barely like". The grammatical case does not prohibit the construction, as @David said.



            However, it might be more pleasing to continue in the same case, "... meinen Hund, den ...", leaving it in an object position. Although there's no overt preference, it stands to reason. Unless the relative clause restricts or explains the main clause (I mean what the hell, Jack, what was that for, and why would anyone permit that to happen repeatedly), it would be more natural to start a new sentence. Whereas, if restricting the main clause, the dog may well remain in object position, as the dog is not a subject that could be actively responsible for those actions. Phrasing the given relative clause with the dog as an accusative object would be rather difficult though (the passive transposition would use dativ "von dem"). Therefore it's not done and the resulting argument is subjective, not objective, and thus not conclusive. We would naturally have to ask, "what, wait a second, you don't even like the dog and let it be kicked?". Better would be thus, "... meinen Hund, den ich sowieso nicht mag, denn der ärgert mich immer". That's a matter of style more than grammar, and in many cases it is fine either way. But it's a good question.






            share|improve this answer













            It's very much the same in English, "John loves Isi, who I just barely like". The grammatical case does not prohibit the construction, as @David said.



            However, it might be more pleasing to continue in the same case, "... meinen Hund, den ...", leaving it in an object position. Although there's no overt preference, it stands to reason. Unless the relative clause restricts or explains the main clause (I mean what the hell, Jack, what was that for, and why would anyone permit that to happen repeatedly), it would be more natural to start a new sentence. Whereas, if restricting the main clause, the dog may well remain in object position, as the dog is not a subject that could be actively responsible for those actions. Phrasing the given relative clause with the dog as an accusative object would be rather difficult though (the passive transposition would use dativ "von dem"). Therefore it's not done and the resulting argument is subjective, not objective, and thus not conclusive. We would naturally have to ask, "what, wait a second, you don't even like the dog and let it be kicked?". Better would be thus, "... meinen Hund, den ich sowieso nicht mag, denn der ärgert mich immer". That's a matter of style more than grammar, and in many cases it is fine either way. But it's a good question.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered Apr 8 at 6:50









            vectoryvectory

            49610




            49610












            • Of course, careful written English will often still use "whom I just barely like", but this is really foreign to many native English speakers while the use of the correct case for the relative pronoun comes naturally to native German speakers.

              – Carsten S
              Apr 8 at 9:56

















            • Of course, careful written English will often still use "whom I just barely like", but this is really foreign to many native English speakers while the use of the correct case for the relative pronoun comes naturally to native German speakers.

              – Carsten S
              Apr 8 at 9:56
















            Of course, careful written English will often still use "whom I just barely like", but this is really foreign to many native English speakers while the use of the correct case for the relative pronoun comes naturally to native German speakers.

            – Carsten S
            Apr 8 at 9:56





            Of course, careful written English will often still use "whom I just barely like", but this is really foreign to many native English speakers while the use of the correct case for the relative pronoun comes naturally to native German speakers.

            – Carsten S
            Apr 8 at 9:56

















            draft saved

            draft discarded
















































            Thanks for contributing an answer to German Language Stack Exchange!


            • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

            But avoid


            • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

            • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

            To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




            draft saved


            draft discarded














            StackExchange.ready(
            function ()
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fgerman.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f50543%2fwhy-does-this-relative-pronoun-not-take-the-case-of-the-noun-it-is-referring-to%23new-answer', 'question_page');

            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown





















































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown

































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown







            Popular posts from this blog

            Bulk add to cart function issuecart vs. mini cart issue … rwd themeRedirect Add to cart button to cart pageAdd to cart issue - Magento 2.1The requested Payment Method is not available When creating an orderM2: reason add-to-cart might not function in production modeAdd to cart issue in some android devicesMagento 2 - custom price can not add to subtotal and grand total after add to cartAdd to cart codeIssue with my cart module on pdp and cart pages, just keeps spinningBulk price and quantity update using rest api

            Magento2 - How to hide price filter only in specific categories?Multiselect price filter attribute in layered navigationhide only some categories from layered navigation in magentoRemove Price Filter on certain categoriescustomize layered price filter?Hide Price for a particular customer groupPrice filter in layered navigation not working correctly with price including tax in magento 2.2.3Magento 2 how to hide attribute at Layered navigation?Magento 2. how to hide price only for specific categoriesMagento 2 How can I hide the price and total from cart and checkout summary?Magento2: Can we add navigation layered filter like price filter for other attribute?