Do sorcerers' Subtle Spells require a skill check to be unseen? The Next CEO of Stack OverflowIs there “flavor text” in D&D 5e spells?How loud/obvious is a wizard casting a spell?Can a Spell cast with Subtle Spell and an Arcane Focus be Counterspelled?Wait… Fireball is not an attack?Which spells do Wizards get at lower levels than Sorcerers?Can multi-classing improve a sorcerer's solo-potential?Stone Warder Sorcerer spell selectionSubtle spell and saving throwsCan Catapult be used on Delayed Blast Fireball?D&D 5e, Looking for thoughts and suggestions on a character build and backstory I'm looking to makeCan a Lore bard use Cutting Words against the attack roll/ability check of a sorcerer's Subtle spell?Can a restrained Sorcerer use the Subtle Spell metamagic to cast attack spells without disadvantage?Are casting times for echoed spells increased for sorcerers?Is it possible for a swallowed caster to cast Fireball outside of a Giant Toad?

Limits on contract work without pre-agreed price/contract (UK)

Novel about a guy who is possessed by the divine essence and the world ends?

If Nick Fury and Coulson already knew about aliens (Kree and Skrull) why did they wait until Thor's appearance to start making weapons?

Several mode to write the symbol of a vector

Would this house-rule that treats advantage as a +1 to the roll instead (and disadvantage as -1) and allows them to stack be balanced?

How to Reset Passwords on Multiple Websites Easily?

Why didn't Khan get resurrected in the Genesis Explosion?

What flight has the highest ratio of time difference to flight time?

Rotate a column

WOW air has ceased operation, can I get my tickets refunded?

Is it ever safe to open a suspicious html file (e.g. email attachment)?

Why am I allowed to create multiple unique pointers from a single object?

What exact does MIB represent in SNMP? How is it different from OID?

Do I need to enable Dev Hub in my PROD Org?

Can I run my washing machine drain line into a condensate pump so it drains better?

What happened in Rome, when the western empire "fell"?

Contours of a clandestine nature

What is the result of assigning to std::vector<T>::begin()?

Between two walls

In excess I'm lethal

What's the best way to handle refactoring a big file?

Indicator light circuit

How to invert MapIndexed on a ragged structure? How to construct a tree from rules?

Example of a Mathematician/Physicist whose Other Publications during their PhD eclipsed their PhD Thesis



Do sorcerers' Subtle Spells require a skill check to be unseen?



The Next CEO of Stack OverflowIs there “flavor text” in D&D 5e spells?How loud/obvious is a wizard casting a spell?Can a Spell cast with Subtle Spell and an Arcane Focus be Counterspelled?Wait… Fireball is not an attack?Which spells do Wizards get at lower levels than Sorcerers?Can multi-classing improve a sorcerer's solo-potential?Stone Warder Sorcerer spell selectionSubtle spell and saving throwsCan Catapult be used on Delayed Blast Fireball?D&D 5e, Looking for thoughts and suggestions on a character build and backstory I'm looking to makeCan a Lore bard use Cutting Words against the attack roll/ability check of a sorcerer's Subtle spell?Can a restrained Sorcerer use the Subtle Spell metamagic to cast attack spells without disadvantage?Are casting times for echoed spells increased for sorcerers?Is it possible for a swallowed caster to cast Fireball outside of a Giant Toad?










18












$begingroup$


I have a guest player who is secretly an evil "plant" inside the party causing trouble. He's a sorcerer who wants to use Subtle Spell metamagic to stop the party from delving into his master's old lair, and he has a custom ring item that works as a hands-free arcane focus. He and I agreed that he'd give me signals about what to cast and where, and I'd roll the damage and keep track of the lost sorcerer points.



So the party is sneaking past a sleeping giant and the sorcerer signals fireball on the party to wake the giant. After the battle, the cleric says her passive Perception (which is pretty high, admittedly) should have let her see where the fireball originated from, pointing out that fireball says:




A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range




Now, I assume the pointing finger is part of the somatic components of fireball and thus not necessary with the Subtle Spell metamagic. And for spells that obviously originate from the caster like cone attacks, it wouldn't be particularly possible to hide the location of the caster. But fireball's streak effect doesn't seem to be a mechanic of the spell, more just flavor text.



I addressed the problem in-game by rolling a Sleight of Hand check against the cleric's passive Perception using the sorcerer's stats and managed to keep it hidden and "it happened so fast you saw it came from behind you but nothing else", but is that the right solution?



But the more I think about it, the more complicated it seems. Does it follow the stealth rules where any attack, even long distance arrows, immediately gives away the position of the attacker? Would a subtle psychic scream (XGtE, p. 163) be traceable to the caster despite having no visible ties to the caster?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 5




    $begingroup$
    Related: Is there “flavor text” in D&D 5e spells? and How loud/obvious is a wizard casting a spell?
    $endgroup$
    – Rubiksmoose
    2 days ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Related: Can a Spell cast with Subtle Spell and an Arcane Focus be Counterspelled?
    $endgroup$
    – BlueMoon93
    yesterday















18












$begingroup$


I have a guest player who is secretly an evil "plant" inside the party causing trouble. He's a sorcerer who wants to use Subtle Spell metamagic to stop the party from delving into his master's old lair, and he has a custom ring item that works as a hands-free arcane focus. He and I agreed that he'd give me signals about what to cast and where, and I'd roll the damage and keep track of the lost sorcerer points.



So the party is sneaking past a sleeping giant and the sorcerer signals fireball on the party to wake the giant. After the battle, the cleric says her passive Perception (which is pretty high, admittedly) should have let her see where the fireball originated from, pointing out that fireball says:




A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range




Now, I assume the pointing finger is part of the somatic components of fireball and thus not necessary with the Subtle Spell metamagic. And for spells that obviously originate from the caster like cone attacks, it wouldn't be particularly possible to hide the location of the caster. But fireball's streak effect doesn't seem to be a mechanic of the spell, more just flavor text.



I addressed the problem in-game by rolling a Sleight of Hand check against the cleric's passive Perception using the sorcerer's stats and managed to keep it hidden and "it happened so fast you saw it came from behind you but nothing else", but is that the right solution?



But the more I think about it, the more complicated it seems. Does it follow the stealth rules where any attack, even long distance arrows, immediately gives away the position of the attacker? Would a subtle psychic scream (XGtE, p. 163) be traceable to the caster despite having no visible ties to the caster?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 5




    $begingroup$
    Related: Is there “flavor text” in D&D 5e spells? and How loud/obvious is a wizard casting a spell?
    $endgroup$
    – Rubiksmoose
    2 days ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Related: Can a Spell cast with Subtle Spell and an Arcane Focus be Counterspelled?
    $endgroup$
    – BlueMoon93
    yesterday













18












18








18


1



$begingroup$


I have a guest player who is secretly an evil "plant" inside the party causing trouble. He's a sorcerer who wants to use Subtle Spell metamagic to stop the party from delving into his master's old lair, and he has a custom ring item that works as a hands-free arcane focus. He and I agreed that he'd give me signals about what to cast and where, and I'd roll the damage and keep track of the lost sorcerer points.



So the party is sneaking past a sleeping giant and the sorcerer signals fireball on the party to wake the giant. After the battle, the cleric says her passive Perception (which is pretty high, admittedly) should have let her see where the fireball originated from, pointing out that fireball says:




A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range




Now, I assume the pointing finger is part of the somatic components of fireball and thus not necessary with the Subtle Spell metamagic. And for spells that obviously originate from the caster like cone attacks, it wouldn't be particularly possible to hide the location of the caster. But fireball's streak effect doesn't seem to be a mechanic of the spell, more just flavor text.



I addressed the problem in-game by rolling a Sleight of Hand check against the cleric's passive Perception using the sorcerer's stats and managed to keep it hidden and "it happened so fast you saw it came from behind you but nothing else", but is that the right solution?



But the more I think about it, the more complicated it seems. Does it follow the stealth rules where any attack, even long distance arrows, immediately gives away the position of the attacker? Would a subtle psychic scream (XGtE, p. 163) be traceable to the caster despite having no visible ties to the caster?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




I have a guest player who is secretly an evil "plant" inside the party causing trouble. He's a sorcerer who wants to use Subtle Spell metamagic to stop the party from delving into his master's old lair, and he has a custom ring item that works as a hands-free arcane focus. He and I agreed that he'd give me signals about what to cast and where, and I'd roll the damage and keep track of the lost sorcerer points.



So the party is sneaking past a sleeping giant and the sorcerer signals fireball on the party to wake the giant. After the battle, the cleric says her passive Perception (which is pretty high, admittedly) should have let her see where the fireball originated from, pointing out that fireball says:




A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range




Now, I assume the pointing finger is part of the somatic components of fireball and thus not necessary with the Subtle Spell metamagic. And for spells that obviously originate from the caster like cone attacks, it wouldn't be particularly possible to hide the location of the caster. But fireball's streak effect doesn't seem to be a mechanic of the spell, more just flavor text.



I addressed the problem in-game by rolling a Sleight of Hand check against the cleric's passive Perception using the sorcerer's stats and managed to keep it hidden and "it happened so fast you saw it came from behind you but nothing else", but is that the right solution?



But the more I think about it, the more complicated it seems. Does it follow the stealth rules where any attack, even long distance arrows, immediately gives away the position of the attacker? Would a subtle psychic scream (XGtE, p. 163) be traceable to the caster despite having no visible ties to the caster?







dnd-5e spells sorcerer stealth metamagic






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited yesterday









Tiggerous

10.4k44784




10.4k44784










asked 2 days ago









Miles BedingerMiles Bedinger

3,971640




3,971640







  • 5




    $begingroup$
    Related: Is there “flavor text” in D&D 5e spells? and How loud/obvious is a wizard casting a spell?
    $endgroup$
    – Rubiksmoose
    2 days ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Related: Can a Spell cast with Subtle Spell and an Arcane Focus be Counterspelled?
    $endgroup$
    – BlueMoon93
    yesterday












  • 5




    $begingroup$
    Related: Is there “flavor text” in D&D 5e spells? and How loud/obvious is a wizard casting a spell?
    $endgroup$
    – Rubiksmoose
    2 days ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Related: Can a Spell cast with Subtle Spell and an Arcane Focus be Counterspelled?
    $endgroup$
    – BlueMoon93
    yesterday







5




5




$begingroup$
Related: Is there “flavor text” in D&D 5e spells? and How loud/obvious is a wizard casting a spell?
$endgroup$
– Rubiksmoose
2 days ago




$begingroup$
Related: Is there “flavor text” in D&D 5e spells? and How loud/obvious is a wizard casting a spell?
$endgroup$
– Rubiksmoose
2 days ago




2




2




$begingroup$
Related: Can a Spell cast with Subtle Spell and an Arcane Focus be Counterspelled?
$endgroup$
– BlueMoon93
yesterday




$begingroup$
Related: Can a Spell cast with Subtle Spell and an Arcane Focus be Counterspelled?
$endgroup$
– BlueMoon93
yesterday










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















21












$begingroup$

Xanathar's Guide to Everything has optional rules for this situation



Dungeon Master's Tools > Spellcasting > Perceiving a Caster at Work




If the need for a spell’s components has been removed by a special ability, such as the sorcerer’s Subtle Spell feature or the Innate Spellcasting trait possessed by many creatures, the casting of the spell is imperceptible. If an imperceptible casting produces a perceptible effect, it’s normally impossible to determine who cast the spell in the absence of other evidence.




The actual casting of the spell is hidden1 by virtue of the subtle spell metamagic.



The effect of casting the fireball spell is to create




A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range and then blossoms with a low roar into an explosion of flame.




The streak of light coming from your finger is pretty clearly "other evidence", however it has some caveats as to how strong this evidence is. Your finger does not have to be pointing from an outstretched arm, not does it need to be obvious.



The bright streak however is an obvious and perceptible effect of the spell. If the Sorcerer was behind the cleric the cleric would absolutely notice a streak of light coming from behind them, but they may not notice who it came from. So would the majority of the rest of the party.



1. Note there is a potential argument to be made that the arcane focus is still perceptible under normal circumstances, however the special ring item you have created for the PC removes this from consideration from a detection perspective.



Passive Perception does not give you 360 degree vision



PHB > Ability Checks:




Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. It measures your general awareness of your surroundings and the keenness of your senses. For example, you might try to hear a conversation through a closed door, eavesdrop under an open window, or hear monsters moving stealthily in the forest. Or you might try to spot things that are obscured or easy to miss, whether they are orcs lying in ambush on a road, thugs hiding in the shadows of an alley, or candlelight under a closed secret door.




If the Sorcerer were in any way intelligent they would know the streak of light is produced by the fireball and would wait to cast it until no one in the party was looking at them.



Thus the cleric would not "automatically" know where it is coming from due to their passive perception.



Casting fireball is not an attack



The rules you mention about unseen attackers state




If you are hidden — both unseen and unheard — when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.




The game rules define attacks pretty clearly (in the same section of the PHB as the unseen attackers rules).




If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack.




Fireball requires no attack roll, thus it is not an attack.



As a result the unseen attackers rule section does not apply.



Would a subtle psychic scream be imperceptible?



Yes it would. It requires only somatic components and produces no perceptible effect that would indicate it's point of origin.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$




















    13












    $begingroup$

    Unclear, but it doesn't disguise fireball by default



    It is worth noting that the spell description is in addition and, more importantly, separate from material, verbal, and somatic components.



    For example, the 2019 Sage Advice Compendium states, in regards to suggestion,




    Verbal components are mystic words (PH, 203), not normal speech. The spell’s suggestion is an intelligible utterance that is separate from the verbal component. The command spell is the simplest example of this principle. The utterance of the verbal component is separate from, and precedes, any verbal utterance that would bring about the spell’s effect.




    I use this evidence to conclude that in the case of fireball, the bright streak from your pointed feature is a required portion of the spell's effect, outside of the verbal and somatic components that the metamagic removes.



    Casting a spell attack, notably, does automatically reveal you



    On PHB 195, under Unseen Attackers and Targets:




    If you are hidden - both unseen and unheard - when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.




    The section does not specify for spells with a save DC (or other effects), so the default would be that it doesn't reveal you.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$












    • $begingroup$
      Fireball is not an attack, however. No attack roll is made, so no attack occurs.
      $endgroup$
      – MarkTO
      yesterday






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Yep, that is correct, the last sentence covers the case of fireball.
      $endgroup$
      – Blake Steel
      yesterday










    • $begingroup$
      Someone being revealed and someone being the origin of an attack are not quite the same thing. The first means you are no longer hidden, it doesn't say "and the attack is known to come from you". That second clause may be implied, but it isn't stated. In this specific case, the sorcerer is not unseen/hidden, the sorcerer just wants to hide the fact they are the origin of the attack.
      $endgroup$
      – Yakk
      yesterday


















    5












    $begingroup$

    Subtle Spell only covers somatic components, not other spell effects



    By the wording of Subtle Spell:




    When you cast a spell, you can spend 1 sorcery point to cast it without any somatic or verbal components.




    If we look at the basic rules on Somatic Spellcasting Components, we're given:




    Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.




    Somatic components are specific hand gesture requirements necessarily for all somatic spells. This is separate from gestures specified within the spell itself, which are more akin to being part of the effect of the spell. Subtle Spell means you don't need to do the intricate hand signs or verbal parts to cast it, but once cast the effect takes place, which includes "A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range".



    How perceivable/traceable this is, however, is up to the DM and the situation. I'd rule similar to how you did in the example you gave since even if you rule the hand does nothing, the bright flashing streak isn't a somatic component, and it has to come from somewhere.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$












    • $begingroup$
      Agreed, and I would probably add that, at least in my book, 'pointing finger' does not necessarily imply extended-arm-pointing-finger-objection-pose. It might well just be a quick extension of your index finger from any pose you're currently in, making the motion much more subtle if you don't have to add somatic components.
      $endgroup$
      – Suthek
      yesterday











    Your Answer





    StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
    return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function ()
    StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix)
    StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["\$", "\$"]]);
    );
    );
    , "mathjax-editing");

    StackExchange.ready(function()
    var channelOptions =
    tags: "".split(" "),
    id: "122"
    ;
    initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

    StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
    // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
    if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
    StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
    createEditor();
    );

    else
    createEditor();

    );

    function createEditor()
    StackExchange.prepareEditor(
    heartbeatType: 'answer',
    autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
    convertImagesToLinks: false,
    noModals: true,
    showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
    reputationToPostImages: null,
    bindNavPrevention: true,
    postfix: "",
    imageUploader:
    brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
    contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
    allowUrls: true
    ,
    noCode: true, onDemand: true,
    discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
    ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
    );



    );













    draft saved

    draft discarded


















    StackExchange.ready(
    function ()
    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2frpg.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f144051%2fdo-sorcerers-subtle-spells-require-a-skill-check-to-be-unseen%23new-answer', 'question_page');

    );

    Post as a guest















    Required, but never shown

























    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes








    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    21












    $begingroup$

    Xanathar's Guide to Everything has optional rules for this situation



    Dungeon Master's Tools > Spellcasting > Perceiving a Caster at Work




    If the need for a spell’s components has been removed by a special ability, such as the sorcerer’s Subtle Spell feature or the Innate Spellcasting trait possessed by many creatures, the casting of the spell is imperceptible. If an imperceptible casting produces a perceptible effect, it’s normally impossible to determine who cast the spell in the absence of other evidence.




    The actual casting of the spell is hidden1 by virtue of the subtle spell metamagic.



    The effect of casting the fireball spell is to create




    A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range and then blossoms with a low roar into an explosion of flame.




    The streak of light coming from your finger is pretty clearly "other evidence", however it has some caveats as to how strong this evidence is. Your finger does not have to be pointing from an outstretched arm, not does it need to be obvious.



    The bright streak however is an obvious and perceptible effect of the spell. If the Sorcerer was behind the cleric the cleric would absolutely notice a streak of light coming from behind them, but they may not notice who it came from. So would the majority of the rest of the party.



    1. Note there is a potential argument to be made that the arcane focus is still perceptible under normal circumstances, however the special ring item you have created for the PC removes this from consideration from a detection perspective.



    Passive Perception does not give you 360 degree vision



    PHB > Ability Checks:




    Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. It measures your general awareness of your surroundings and the keenness of your senses. For example, you might try to hear a conversation through a closed door, eavesdrop under an open window, or hear monsters moving stealthily in the forest. Or you might try to spot things that are obscured or easy to miss, whether they are orcs lying in ambush on a road, thugs hiding in the shadows of an alley, or candlelight under a closed secret door.




    If the Sorcerer were in any way intelligent they would know the streak of light is produced by the fireball and would wait to cast it until no one in the party was looking at them.



    Thus the cleric would not "automatically" know where it is coming from due to their passive perception.



    Casting fireball is not an attack



    The rules you mention about unseen attackers state




    If you are hidden — both unseen and unheard — when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.




    The game rules define attacks pretty clearly (in the same section of the PHB as the unseen attackers rules).




    If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack.




    Fireball requires no attack roll, thus it is not an attack.



    As a result the unseen attackers rule section does not apply.



    Would a subtle psychic scream be imperceptible?



    Yes it would. It requires only somatic components and produces no perceptible effect that would indicate it's point of origin.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$

















      21












      $begingroup$

      Xanathar's Guide to Everything has optional rules for this situation



      Dungeon Master's Tools > Spellcasting > Perceiving a Caster at Work




      If the need for a spell’s components has been removed by a special ability, such as the sorcerer’s Subtle Spell feature or the Innate Spellcasting trait possessed by many creatures, the casting of the spell is imperceptible. If an imperceptible casting produces a perceptible effect, it’s normally impossible to determine who cast the spell in the absence of other evidence.




      The actual casting of the spell is hidden1 by virtue of the subtle spell metamagic.



      The effect of casting the fireball spell is to create




      A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range and then blossoms with a low roar into an explosion of flame.




      The streak of light coming from your finger is pretty clearly "other evidence", however it has some caveats as to how strong this evidence is. Your finger does not have to be pointing from an outstretched arm, not does it need to be obvious.



      The bright streak however is an obvious and perceptible effect of the spell. If the Sorcerer was behind the cleric the cleric would absolutely notice a streak of light coming from behind them, but they may not notice who it came from. So would the majority of the rest of the party.



      1. Note there is a potential argument to be made that the arcane focus is still perceptible under normal circumstances, however the special ring item you have created for the PC removes this from consideration from a detection perspective.



      Passive Perception does not give you 360 degree vision



      PHB > Ability Checks:




      Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. It measures your general awareness of your surroundings and the keenness of your senses. For example, you might try to hear a conversation through a closed door, eavesdrop under an open window, or hear monsters moving stealthily in the forest. Or you might try to spot things that are obscured or easy to miss, whether they are orcs lying in ambush on a road, thugs hiding in the shadows of an alley, or candlelight under a closed secret door.




      If the Sorcerer were in any way intelligent they would know the streak of light is produced by the fireball and would wait to cast it until no one in the party was looking at them.



      Thus the cleric would not "automatically" know where it is coming from due to their passive perception.



      Casting fireball is not an attack



      The rules you mention about unseen attackers state




      If you are hidden — both unseen and unheard — when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.




      The game rules define attacks pretty clearly (in the same section of the PHB as the unseen attackers rules).




      If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack.




      Fireball requires no attack roll, thus it is not an attack.



      As a result the unseen attackers rule section does not apply.



      Would a subtle psychic scream be imperceptible?



      Yes it would. It requires only somatic components and produces no perceptible effect that would indicate it's point of origin.






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$















        21












        21








        21





        $begingroup$

        Xanathar's Guide to Everything has optional rules for this situation



        Dungeon Master's Tools > Spellcasting > Perceiving a Caster at Work




        If the need for a spell’s components has been removed by a special ability, such as the sorcerer’s Subtle Spell feature or the Innate Spellcasting trait possessed by many creatures, the casting of the spell is imperceptible. If an imperceptible casting produces a perceptible effect, it’s normally impossible to determine who cast the spell in the absence of other evidence.




        The actual casting of the spell is hidden1 by virtue of the subtle spell metamagic.



        The effect of casting the fireball spell is to create




        A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range and then blossoms with a low roar into an explosion of flame.




        The streak of light coming from your finger is pretty clearly "other evidence", however it has some caveats as to how strong this evidence is. Your finger does not have to be pointing from an outstretched arm, not does it need to be obvious.



        The bright streak however is an obvious and perceptible effect of the spell. If the Sorcerer was behind the cleric the cleric would absolutely notice a streak of light coming from behind them, but they may not notice who it came from. So would the majority of the rest of the party.



        1. Note there is a potential argument to be made that the arcane focus is still perceptible under normal circumstances, however the special ring item you have created for the PC removes this from consideration from a detection perspective.



        Passive Perception does not give you 360 degree vision



        PHB > Ability Checks:




        Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. It measures your general awareness of your surroundings and the keenness of your senses. For example, you might try to hear a conversation through a closed door, eavesdrop under an open window, or hear monsters moving stealthily in the forest. Or you might try to spot things that are obscured or easy to miss, whether they are orcs lying in ambush on a road, thugs hiding in the shadows of an alley, or candlelight under a closed secret door.




        If the Sorcerer were in any way intelligent they would know the streak of light is produced by the fireball and would wait to cast it until no one in the party was looking at them.



        Thus the cleric would not "automatically" know where it is coming from due to their passive perception.



        Casting fireball is not an attack



        The rules you mention about unseen attackers state




        If you are hidden — both unseen and unheard — when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.




        The game rules define attacks pretty clearly (in the same section of the PHB as the unseen attackers rules).




        If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack.




        Fireball requires no attack roll, thus it is not an attack.



        As a result the unseen attackers rule section does not apply.



        Would a subtle psychic scream be imperceptible?



        Yes it would. It requires only somatic components and produces no perceptible effect that would indicate it's point of origin.






        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$



        Xanathar's Guide to Everything has optional rules for this situation



        Dungeon Master's Tools > Spellcasting > Perceiving a Caster at Work




        If the need for a spell’s components has been removed by a special ability, such as the sorcerer’s Subtle Spell feature or the Innate Spellcasting trait possessed by many creatures, the casting of the spell is imperceptible. If an imperceptible casting produces a perceptible effect, it’s normally impossible to determine who cast the spell in the absence of other evidence.




        The actual casting of the spell is hidden1 by virtue of the subtle spell metamagic.



        The effect of casting the fireball spell is to create




        A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range and then blossoms with a low roar into an explosion of flame.




        The streak of light coming from your finger is pretty clearly "other evidence", however it has some caveats as to how strong this evidence is. Your finger does not have to be pointing from an outstretched arm, not does it need to be obvious.



        The bright streak however is an obvious and perceptible effect of the spell. If the Sorcerer was behind the cleric the cleric would absolutely notice a streak of light coming from behind them, but they may not notice who it came from. So would the majority of the rest of the party.



        1. Note there is a potential argument to be made that the arcane focus is still perceptible under normal circumstances, however the special ring item you have created for the PC removes this from consideration from a detection perspective.



        Passive Perception does not give you 360 degree vision



        PHB > Ability Checks:




        Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. It measures your general awareness of your surroundings and the keenness of your senses. For example, you might try to hear a conversation through a closed door, eavesdrop under an open window, or hear monsters moving stealthily in the forest. Or you might try to spot things that are obscured or easy to miss, whether they are orcs lying in ambush on a road, thugs hiding in the shadows of an alley, or candlelight under a closed secret door.




        If the Sorcerer were in any way intelligent they would know the streak of light is produced by the fireball and would wait to cast it until no one in the party was looking at them.



        Thus the cleric would not "automatically" know where it is coming from due to their passive perception.



        Casting fireball is not an attack



        The rules you mention about unseen attackers state




        If you are hidden — both unseen and unheard — when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.




        The game rules define attacks pretty clearly (in the same section of the PHB as the unseen attackers rules).




        If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack.




        Fireball requires no attack roll, thus it is not an attack.



        As a result the unseen attackers rule section does not apply.



        Would a subtle psychic scream be imperceptible?



        Yes it would. It requires only somatic components and produces no perceptible effect that would indicate it's point of origin.







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited yesterday

























        answered yesterday









        illustroillustro

        8,68222571




        8,68222571























            13












            $begingroup$

            Unclear, but it doesn't disguise fireball by default



            It is worth noting that the spell description is in addition and, more importantly, separate from material, verbal, and somatic components.



            For example, the 2019 Sage Advice Compendium states, in regards to suggestion,




            Verbal components are mystic words (PH, 203), not normal speech. The spell’s suggestion is an intelligible utterance that is separate from the verbal component. The command spell is the simplest example of this principle. The utterance of the verbal component is separate from, and precedes, any verbal utterance that would bring about the spell’s effect.




            I use this evidence to conclude that in the case of fireball, the bright streak from your pointed feature is a required portion of the spell's effect, outside of the verbal and somatic components that the metamagic removes.



            Casting a spell attack, notably, does automatically reveal you



            On PHB 195, under Unseen Attackers and Targets:




            If you are hidden - both unseen and unheard - when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.




            The section does not specify for spells with a save DC (or other effects), so the default would be that it doesn't reveal you.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$












            • $begingroup$
              Fireball is not an attack, however. No attack roll is made, so no attack occurs.
              $endgroup$
              – MarkTO
              yesterday






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              Yep, that is correct, the last sentence covers the case of fireball.
              $endgroup$
              – Blake Steel
              yesterday










            • $begingroup$
              Someone being revealed and someone being the origin of an attack are not quite the same thing. The first means you are no longer hidden, it doesn't say "and the attack is known to come from you". That second clause may be implied, but it isn't stated. In this specific case, the sorcerer is not unseen/hidden, the sorcerer just wants to hide the fact they are the origin of the attack.
              $endgroup$
              – Yakk
              yesterday















            13












            $begingroup$

            Unclear, but it doesn't disguise fireball by default



            It is worth noting that the spell description is in addition and, more importantly, separate from material, verbal, and somatic components.



            For example, the 2019 Sage Advice Compendium states, in regards to suggestion,




            Verbal components are mystic words (PH, 203), not normal speech. The spell’s suggestion is an intelligible utterance that is separate from the verbal component. The command spell is the simplest example of this principle. The utterance of the verbal component is separate from, and precedes, any verbal utterance that would bring about the spell’s effect.




            I use this evidence to conclude that in the case of fireball, the bright streak from your pointed feature is a required portion of the spell's effect, outside of the verbal and somatic components that the metamagic removes.



            Casting a spell attack, notably, does automatically reveal you



            On PHB 195, under Unseen Attackers and Targets:




            If you are hidden - both unseen and unheard - when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.




            The section does not specify for spells with a save DC (or other effects), so the default would be that it doesn't reveal you.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$












            • $begingroup$
              Fireball is not an attack, however. No attack roll is made, so no attack occurs.
              $endgroup$
              – MarkTO
              yesterday






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              Yep, that is correct, the last sentence covers the case of fireball.
              $endgroup$
              – Blake Steel
              yesterday










            • $begingroup$
              Someone being revealed and someone being the origin of an attack are not quite the same thing. The first means you are no longer hidden, it doesn't say "and the attack is known to come from you". That second clause may be implied, but it isn't stated. In this specific case, the sorcerer is not unseen/hidden, the sorcerer just wants to hide the fact they are the origin of the attack.
              $endgroup$
              – Yakk
              yesterday













            13












            13








            13





            $begingroup$

            Unclear, but it doesn't disguise fireball by default



            It is worth noting that the spell description is in addition and, more importantly, separate from material, verbal, and somatic components.



            For example, the 2019 Sage Advice Compendium states, in regards to suggestion,




            Verbal components are mystic words (PH, 203), not normal speech. The spell’s suggestion is an intelligible utterance that is separate from the verbal component. The command spell is the simplest example of this principle. The utterance of the verbal component is separate from, and precedes, any verbal utterance that would bring about the spell’s effect.




            I use this evidence to conclude that in the case of fireball, the bright streak from your pointed feature is a required portion of the spell's effect, outside of the verbal and somatic components that the metamagic removes.



            Casting a spell attack, notably, does automatically reveal you



            On PHB 195, under Unseen Attackers and Targets:




            If you are hidden - both unseen and unheard - when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.




            The section does not specify for spells with a save DC (or other effects), so the default would be that it doesn't reveal you.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$



            Unclear, but it doesn't disguise fireball by default



            It is worth noting that the spell description is in addition and, more importantly, separate from material, verbal, and somatic components.



            For example, the 2019 Sage Advice Compendium states, in regards to suggestion,




            Verbal components are mystic words (PH, 203), not normal speech. The spell’s suggestion is an intelligible utterance that is separate from the verbal component. The command spell is the simplest example of this principle. The utterance of the verbal component is separate from, and precedes, any verbal utterance that would bring about the spell’s effect.




            I use this evidence to conclude that in the case of fireball, the bright streak from your pointed feature is a required portion of the spell's effect, outside of the verbal and somatic components that the metamagic removes.



            Casting a spell attack, notably, does automatically reveal you



            On PHB 195, under Unseen Attackers and Targets:




            If you are hidden - both unseen and unheard - when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.




            The section does not specify for spells with a save DC (or other effects), so the default would be that it doesn't reveal you.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 2 days ago









            Blake SteelBlake Steel

            4,3081951




            4,3081951











            • $begingroup$
              Fireball is not an attack, however. No attack roll is made, so no attack occurs.
              $endgroup$
              – MarkTO
              yesterday






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              Yep, that is correct, the last sentence covers the case of fireball.
              $endgroup$
              – Blake Steel
              yesterday










            • $begingroup$
              Someone being revealed and someone being the origin of an attack are not quite the same thing. The first means you are no longer hidden, it doesn't say "and the attack is known to come from you". That second clause may be implied, but it isn't stated. In this specific case, the sorcerer is not unseen/hidden, the sorcerer just wants to hide the fact they are the origin of the attack.
              $endgroup$
              – Yakk
              yesterday
















            • $begingroup$
              Fireball is not an attack, however. No attack roll is made, so no attack occurs.
              $endgroup$
              – MarkTO
              yesterday






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              Yep, that is correct, the last sentence covers the case of fireball.
              $endgroup$
              – Blake Steel
              yesterday










            • $begingroup$
              Someone being revealed and someone being the origin of an attack are not quite the same thing. The first means you are no longer hidden, it doesn't say "and the attack is known to come from you". That second clause may be implied, but it isn't stated. In this specific case, the sorcerer is not unseen/hidden, the sorcerer just wants to hide the fact they are the origin of the attack.
              $endgroup$
              – Yakk
              yesterday















            $begingroup$
            Fireball is not an attack, however. No attack roll is made, so no attack occurs.
            $endgroup$
            – MarkTO
            yesterday




            $begingroup$
            Fireball is not an attack, however. No attack roll is made, so no attack occurs.
            $endgroup$
            – MarkTO
            yesterday




            1




            1




            $begingroup$
            Yep, that is correct, the last sentence covers the case of fireball.
            $endgroup$
            – Blake Steel
            yesterday




            $begingroup$
            Yep, that is correct, the last sentence covers the case of fireball.
            $endgroup$
            – Blake Steel
            yesterday












            $begingroup$
            Someone being revealed and someone being the origin of an attack are not quite the same thing. The first means you are no longer hidden, it doesn't say "and the attack is known to come from you". That second clause may be implied, but it isn't stated. In this specific case, the sorcerer is not unseen/hidden, the sorcerer just wants to hide the fact they are the origin of the attack.
            $endgroup$
            – Yakk
            yesterday




            $begingroup$
            Someone being revealed and someone being the origin of an attack are not quite the same thing. The first means you are no longer hidden, it doesn't say "and the attack is known to come from you". That second clause may be implied, but it isn't stated. In this specific case, the sorcerer is not unseen/hidden, the sorcerer just wants to hide the fact they are the origin of the attack.
            $endgroup$
            – Yakk
            yesterday











            5












            $begingroup$

            Subtle Spell only covers somatic components, not other spell effects



            By the wording of Subtle Spell:




            When you cast a spell, you can spend 1 sorcery point to cast it without any somatic or verbal components.




            If we look at the basic rules on Somatic Spellcasting Components, we're given:




            Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.




            Somatic components are specific hand gesture requirements necessarily for all somatic spells. This is separate from gestures specified within the spell itself, which are more akin to being part of the effect of the spell. Subtle Spell means you don't need to do the intricate hand signs or verbal parts to cast it, but once cast the effect takes place, which includes "A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range".



            How perceivable/traceable this is, however, is up to the DM and the situation. I'd rule similar to how you did in the example you gave since even if you rule the hand does nothing, the bright flashing streak isn't a somatic component, and it has to come from somewhere.






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$












            • $begingroup$
              Agreed, and I would probably add that, at least in my book, 'pointing finger' does not necessarily imply extended-arm-pointing-finger-objection-pose. It might well just be a quick extension of your index finger from any pose you're currently in, making the motion much more subtle if you don't have to add somatic components.
              $endgroup$
              – Suthek
              yesterday















            5












            $begingroup$

            Subtle Spell only covers somatic components, not other spell effects



            By the wording of Subtle Spell:




            When you cast a spell, you can spend 1 sorcery point to cast it without any somatic or verbal components.




            If we look at the basic rules on Somatic Spellcasting Components, we're given:




            Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.




            Somatic components are specific hand gesture requirements necessarily for all somatic spells. This is separate from gestures specified within the spell itself, which are more akin to being part of the effect of the spell. Subtle Spell means you don't need to do the intricate hand signs or verbal parts to cast it, but once cast the effect takes place, which includes "A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range".



            How perceivable/traceable this is, however, is up to the DM and the situation. I'd rule similar to how you did in the example you gave since even if you rule the hand does nothing, the bright flashing streak isn't a somatic component, and it has to come from somewhere.






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$












            • $begingroup$
              Agreed, and I would probably add that, at least in my book, 'pointing finger' does not necessarily imply extended-arm-pointing-finger-objection-pose. It might well just be a quick extension of your index finger from any pose you're currently in, making the motion much more subtle if you don't have to add somatic components.
              $endgroup$
              – Suthek
              yesterday













            5












            5








            5





            $begingroup$

            Subtle Spell only covers somatic components, not other spell effects



            By the wording of Subtle Spell:




            When you cast a spell, you can spend 1 sorcery point to cast it without any somatic or verbal components.




            If we look at the basic rules on Somatic Spellcasting Components, we're given:




            Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.




            Somatic components are specific hand gesture requirements necessarily for all somatic spells. This is separate from gestures specified within the spell itself, which are more akin to being part of the effect of the spell. Subtle Spell means you don't need to do the intricate hand signs or verbal parts to cast it, but once cast the effect takes place, which includes "A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range".



            How perceivable/traceable this is, however, is up to the DM and the situation. I'd rule similar to how you did in the example you gave since even if you rule the hand does nothing, the bright flashing streak isn't a somatic component, and it has to come from somewhere.






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$



            Subtle Spell only covers somatic components, not other spell effects



            By the wording of Subtle Spell:




            When you cast a spell, you can spend 1 sorcery point to cast it without any somatic or verbal components.




            If we look at the basic rules on Somatic Spellcasting Components, we're given:




            Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.




            Somatic components are specific hand gesture requirements necessarily for all somatic spells. This is separate from gestures specified within the spell itself, which are more akin to being part of the effect of the spell. Subtle Spell means you don't need to do the intricate hand signs or verbal parts to cast it, but once cast the effect takes place, which includes "A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range".



            How perceivable/traceable this is, however, is up to the DM and the situation. I'd rule similar to how you did in the example you gave since even if you rule the hand does nothing, the bright flashing streak isn't a somatic component, and it has to come from somewhere.







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited 2 days ago

























            answered 2 days ago









            Mwr247Mwr247

            2,5621323




            2,5621323











            • $begingroup$
              Agreed, and I would probably add that, at least in my book, 'pointing finger' does not necessarily imply extended-arm-pointing-finger-objection-pose. It might well just be a quick extension of your index finger from any pose you're currently in, making the motion much more subtle if you don't have to add somatic components.
              $endgroup$
              – Suthek
              yesterday
















            • $begingroup$
              Agreed, and I would probably add that, at least in my book, 'pointing finger' does not necessarily imply extended-arm-pointing-finger-objection-pose. It might well just be a quick extension of your index finger from any pose you're currently in, making the motion much more subtle if you don't have to add somatic components.
              $endgroup$
              – Suthek
              yesterday















            $begingroup$
            Agreed, and I would probably add that, at least in my book, 'pointing finger' does not necessarily imply extended-arm-pointing-finger-objection-pose. It might well just be a quick extension of your index finger from any pose you're currently in, making the motion much more subtle if you don't have to add somatic components.
            $endgroup$
            – Suthek
            yesterday




            $begingroup$
            Agreed, and I would probably add that, at least in my book, 'pointing finger' does not necessarily imply extended-arm-pointing-finger-objection-pose. It might well just be a quick extension of your index finger from any pose you're currently in, making the motion much more subtle if you don't have to add somatic components.
            $endgroup$
            – Suthek
            yesterday

















            draft saved

            draft discarded
















































            Thanks for contributing an answer to Role-playing Games Stack Exchange!


            • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

            But avoid


            • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

            • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

            Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


            To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




            draft saved


            draft discarded














            StackExchange.ready(
            function ()
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2frpg.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f144051%2fdo-sorcerers-subtle-spells-require-a-skill-check-to-be-unseen%23new-answer', 'question_page');

            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown





















































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown

































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown







            Popular posts from this blog

            Sum ergo cogito? 1 nng

            419 nièngy_Soadمي 19bal1.5o_g

            Queiggey Chernihivv 9NnOo i Zw X QqKk LpB